Craft Chemicals vs Craft Pharmaceuticals

[Harmless Penguin]

Just looking over the things covered by both skills am I the only person that thinks it seems a bit weighted towards Craft, Chemical? While I understand some skills will be more useful than others in a given setting this seems like Craft, Chemical is a bit too good and versitile. Currently Craft, Chemical covers Poisons, Epic Poisons, Medicine/Chemicals, and Shinobi Drugs while Craft, Pharmaceuticals only covers Antidotes. I would like to propose splitting it a bit more evenly between the two skills and move Shinobi Drugs to being under Craft, Pharmaceuticals. This way there's a use for a high skill rank in both skills and is a rather simple solution. *shrug* This hardly seems game breaking either way.

[Keldon_Draconian]

It seems like a good suggestion. I agree with your idea harmless, i hope Frankto likes it as well.

[kp91]

Craft Pharmaceuticals takes a Pharmaceutical kit or receives a penalty. This makes it an inconvenience, but consider this, why would there be crack in a medicine kit? That's basically what shinobi drugs are. Illegal drugs. Pharmaceuticals, as defined in d20 modern, only covers medicines.

[Whitefire]

I guess i would agree with that, it wouldn't hurt, though Frankto might have a reason to have it like that.
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[Harmless Penguin]

kp, I would say that Shinobi Drugs are broken enough that they should require an actual lab to create rather than a simple kit or even that you'd simply have to attempt to make them without any aid. Also, Craft, Chemicals as defined by d20 modern covers the creation of acids, bases, explosives, and poisonous substances. and Craft, Pharmaceuticals allows the character to compound medical DRUGS to aid in recovery from treatable illnesses. I'd still say that Shinobi Drugs fall in a catagory closer to medicinal drugs than poisons =P.

[Frankto]

Shinobi drugs certainly DO NOT fall under the category of medical research. I don't mean drug as in medicine, I mean drug as in drug. Craft (pharmaceutical) isn't meant to be useful or handy in the first place, it's meant to aid in medical research.

And craft (chemical) covers poisons, epic poisons, explosives, acids, shinobi substances, and shinobi drugs. Craft (pharmaceutical) covers antidotes and medicine against disease. Imagine that. O_o
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[Harmless Penguin]

If you're making this decision based on balancing reasons or game mechanics, such as culling of a skill, and you want Craft Chemicals to be the useful skill and Craft Pharmaceuticals to suck in comparison fine and good. Ignore everything I'm about to say and I'll drop the subject. If you're basing this on what you actually think should fall into the skills though...


By definition, Craft pharmaceutical means crafting of ANY drugs. This is usually asociated with and put in the context of health care in modern day, but it is not necissarily so by definition or historically.

Most commonly ideas for drugs are found when they simply analyze and identify what part of natural remidies actually have the desired effect they want and then try to find some artificial way of making it and also of making it more efficient and effective (hey, eatting red herbs cure poison, I wonder why?). Of course there have also been discoveries from simply messing around and figuring stuff out through pure experimentation (hey, made this wacky new drug and fed it to a rat and it turned green and angry and ripped apart its cage!). Especially in modern day where we can examine and determine exactly how various diseases and toxins work and why exactly they are malignant and how to manipulate their process to minimize or even reverse the damage.

In modern day, after some brilliant people get an idea for a drug we also require them to go through a drug developement phase. This is basically the process in which we make sure this stuff actually does. The eventual goal is to have a working formula with the desired effects and minimal side effects that can be administered in what are determined to be safe doses, possibly by professionals.

Craft Chemistry on the other hand seems to cover a general use of Chemistry much as what is defined as the chemical industry in modern day. It primarily focuses on the use of the chemical processes to produce a wide variety of materials with interesting properties that are usually used in real life to manufacture other items, though there are some exceptions like lye or pesticides. The chemical industry is usually broken down into 'inorganic industrials'(amonia and stuff), 'organic industrials' (phenol, etc.), 'ceramic products' (ahh, bricks), 'petrochemicals' (things made from petrolium, duh), 'agrochemicals' (fertilizers, pesticides, etc.), 'polymers' (polyester and probably whatever you;re wearing), 'elastomers' (rubber bands =), 'oleochemicals' (got soy milk?), 'explosives' (yeah...), and 'fragrances and flavors' (vanilla?). All of which fall under 'acids, bases, explosives, and poisonous substances'. While the pharmaceutical industry is occasionally clumped with the chemical industry, it has seperate defining characteristics that seperate it and obviously is not included in under the Craft Chemical skill in d20 Modern as there's a seperate skill for it.

Basically Shinobi drugs seem to be, and indeed most narcotics and controlled substances are, simply drugs that have gone through the drug discovery phase, but were never put through a rigerous drug developement phase to make a safe formula and dosage for general use by the populace probably because their desired effect is in fact not safe =P. Does it involve molecular biology and biochemistry? Absolutely, but if you dumped everything that involved any branch of chemistery into Craft Chemicals then you could literally do away with Craft Pharmaceutical, Craft Electronics, and Craft Mechanical.

[cmkawasaki]

....And you stated a bunch of facts that you assume Frankto doesn't already know.

It's not a game balancing reason, it's more likely that Frankto saw the culling of a skill that no one should ever really take. I argued your case over a year ago - at least as far as the basic shinobi medicines.

[Harmless Penguin]

*shrug* I specified game mechanic reasons as well and I consider culling of a skill a game mechanics reason. If I was unclear I suppose I should clarify...

I did not immediately assume he did not know said facts, but rather I left the facts there in the event that the decision was not made based on game balance or game mechanics as the basis for an arguement if he had a counter arguement against it. If his arguement is game balance or game mechanics then I do not disagree and simply accept it.

Still, thank you for informing me of the situation and I take some consolation in the fact that I was not alone in this line of thought =P.

[Keldon_Draconian]

After reading Frankto's answer, i agree with him. However, i also think that there should be a way to make Craft (Pharmaceutical) more usefull. How about creating some new shinobi medicines to expand that list? For example:

Paralysis medicine: This injected drug allows the user to make a second saving throw against paralysis effects already affecting him. The saving throw is made with a bonus of +2.

(Think of a proper name) This pill contains anti-depressive components and stimulants, allowing anyone who takes it a second saving throw against feat effects already affecting him.

Etc.

[kp91]

I'm split on the issue, but like I said, Shinobi drugs are things like cocaine type drugs. Not medicinal drugs.

What about making soldier/blood increasing/(other type i forget the name of) pills under both.

[cmkawasaki]

kp91,

Even so, shinobi medicines/drugs could conceivably have fallen into either Chemical or Pharmaceutical.

Poisons sit in Chemical, and medicines and drugs are chemicals.

Pharmaceutical works only on the subset of drugs that seem to be disease curing. In reality, the two skills overlap, under what some would call 'specialities'...

And Frankto decided that since no one in their right mind takes the latter, Craft(Chemical) would just take the shinobi drugs. If you are a DM, you are free to change this for your OWN campaigns. Essentially, the skill you are arguing for pretty much has been cut as far as any in-game usage. And as Naruto D20 pretty much banks on skills for jutsus and such, I highly recommend not screwing the chemist by making him grab even more skills to make his drugs than before, because naturally, his skills are probably spread thinly.

[jmantyk]

The ony reason I've seen anyone take craft pharm. is because of a pre req. for medical specialist, thoguh I've yet to see the skill be used.
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[Frankto]

Then clearly you don't get poisoned much.
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[Keldon_Draconian]