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Working Concept?Archetypes
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Thoughts?
Good idea! I like how it would work.
48%
 48%  [ 24 ]
It has potential, but it could be implemented better
32%
 32%  [ 16 ]
Bad idea, the system works fine as-is
20%
 20%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 50

Author Message
Frankto
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject: Working Concept?Archetypes Reply with quote

One thing that's always bugged me since the creation of Naruto: d20 is the implementation of the Chakra system, and how everyone can use it. And now, I think I may have found a workable solution: Archetypes. Here is the idea, and a possible way to implement it. Thoughts, criticism and suggestions are welcome.

Archetype
At character creation, every player character, heroic and ordinary NPC is given an archetype that dictates what set of ability it has access to, and what niche in society it represents. These archetypes include, but are not limited to: mundane, shinobi and mystic.

An archetype is selected at character creation, and in a fashion similar to a race or occupation, cannot be changed. The character's archetype has deep roots in its background, but is not something acquired at birth?rather, it is something the character has strived to obtain.

Shinobi Archetype: Through extensive training, you have unlocked the secrets of the mind and the body, and developed a special type of energy known only as Chakra. This energy is both a powerful tool and a double edged sword, as it has the power to create wonder at its wielder's command, just as it becomes the lifeblood of whomever possesses it. Though it regenerates with rest, Chakra is not in infinite supply and running out can have dire, at times deadly, consequences.
Shinobi Traits:
- Races: The shinobi archetype may be of any Human, Smallfolk, Gigantic, Monstrous or country-based subhumans (Earth, Fire, Ice, Lightning, Water or Wind humans).
- Skills: The shinobi archetype is able to gain ranks in the Chakra Control, Genjutsu, Ninjutsu and Taijutsu skills. When taking levels in any basic class, he gains additional class skills as follow: Chakra Control (Dedicated), Genjutsu (Charismatic), Knowledge (ninja lore) (all classes), Ninjutsu (Smart) and Taijutsu (Fast, Strong and Tough).
- Feats: The shinobi may select Meta-Chakra and Shinobi feats, and adds several feats to his Bonus Feat list: Genin (all classes), Nin Weapons Proficiency (all classes), Talented Shinobi (all classes), Training (all classes), as well as Genjutsu Adept (Charismatic), Harmony (Dedicated), Ninjutsu Adept (Smart) and Taijutsu Adept (Fast, Strong and Tough).
- Chakra Pool: The shinobi archetype acquires a chakra pool, and may earn shinobi skills such as sensing chakra, and gain shinobi bloodlines. In addition, the shinobi archetype gains a Learn bonus of +1 per level, and may learn Techniques.

Mundane Archetype: You are a commoner, a soldier or a worker. An ordinary human being without the aid of a spiritual source of energy, but also without the risks that come along with it. Though you are refered to, and sometimes looked down upon, as "mundane," that has never stopped you from fully realizing your great potential. What you lack in unnatural ability, you make up for in great technological advancements and superior numbers.
Mundane Traits:
- Races: The mundane archetype can be any of the following races: Human, Smallfolk, Gigantic or Monstrous.
- Skills and Feats: The mundane archetypes gains no additional bonus, skills or feats.

Mystic Archetype: You have awakened an energy within you called spiritual power. Where shinobi proceed with brute force and chakra, you have opened the Eight Celestial Gates through extensive meditation and in a vastly more permanent manner. You command an energy that, though lacking in the versatility that chakra provides, is absolute, infinite and risk free. You are samurai, monk and shugenja?the forces of life and nature are at your command.
Myustic Traits:
- Races: The Mystic archetype can be any of the following races: Human, Smallfolk, Gigantic or Monstrous.
- Skills and Feats: Details to come.
- Spiritual Power: The Mystic archetype gains spiritual power. Details to come.




Before you ask, sensing chakra for non-shinobi archetypes would be dependant on the character level or hit dice of the creature you're trying to sense (1-8 for Faint, 9-18 for Moderate, 19-25 for Strong, 26 or higher for Overwhelming).

As for draining chakra for creatures who don't have any, well, that's not possible.


Let me know what you think.
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Last edited by Frankto on Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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sebsmith
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has potential, but I'd like to see more before I weigh in. If you are going to just use these two, then it seems simpler to just put in a sidebar explaining how to make mundane characters.
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kp91
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And how is this any different than just saying the non-shinobi trained person never learned a technique, which they wouldn't have. System works fine, and this just adds one more thing that you have to find a place to squeeze in on the sheet and adding some unneeded bonuses.
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Naruto20D20
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You said it would be split into Shinobi, Mundane, and Samurai?

I am guessing Samurai may learn Kenjutsu and other similar techniques?
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "Samurai" archetype is a working name. It will be an archetype that includes monks, shugenja and samurai, who use Spiritual Power and not Chakra.

Spiritual Power is a lot like power points in that it is recovered by meditation and has no roots in physical prowess (Wisdom score only) and can't be drained or sucked out. It's directly related to opening the Eight Celestial Gates, but in a very different way and to very different effects.

Spiritual Power won't be used for things like fireballs, or healing spells, but more for things like blindsight, the creation of talismans (those card-sized pieces of paper japanese "sorcerers" are fond of sticking around and throwing at people) and things of the like.


As for how it's different, KP? It's different because mundanes and "samurai" DON'T have chakra. They don't learn techniques because they can't. As for squeezing something on the character sheet, it's simple enough by adding a single line. "Archetype: Shinobi" right below "Occupation".

And obviously, that is Naruto: d20. The basic classes in ND20 are archetypal (shinobi). The classes in d20m would be mundane. And in their own chapter of the book, or perhaps in another book altogether, there would be the archetypal samurai, or whatever it would end up being called.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of note, if you're going to vote that it could be implemented better, that tells me nothing unless you expand and actually post what you mean.
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Felix_Zyphros
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea. It does have potential but there's some stuff that could be worked on, such as the difference between the 'samurai' (mystic or something similar?) and shinobi.

1) Besides the samurai not gaining chakra, what difference would they have from eachother? I'm guessing that there would be a seperate system entirely for spiritual power? Not to be negative, but remember how long it took to get the chakra system hammered out?

2) What will the samurai abilities entail? Blood Sorcery, Sword Arts, maybe martial arts fram different manga (fist of the north star anyone?)? Would some shunjutsu style abilities be included?

I just want to get these questions out of the way before deciding.... It looks good as a start and it seems alot can be built upon it. The samurai idea would actualy work real well with the homebrew setting I've been delaying working on...

edit: To go on the idea, would certain techniques be passed over from shinobi to samurai? And, in saying that, would there be a seperate skill that only a samurai could learn?
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spiritual Power will be like chakra in that you have a select amount of it, but it won't be used for offensive purposes in the same way Chakra can. Blind sight, barriers, armors of energy that chakra regardless of its form can't pierce, or barriers of energy that can slice through rock like a hot knife through butter.

The Shinobi Skills equivalent would include sensing chakra, spiritual power and illness by touching someone and focusing, mind/spirit projection, thoughts reading, and so on.

And I do like the name Mystic, I might just go with that. As for samurai techniques, there wouldn't be martial arts per say. A samurai-like class would have maneuvers derived from both DND4E and the Book of Nine Swords, in that the maneuver you gain can be used a certain number of times per encounter. Sort of like so:

Cleaving Strikes
Your attacks strike multiple target.
Use: Your attacks strike an additional target adjacent both to you and the targeted enemy. The second target is struck by the same attack roll, but the attack cannot be a critical hit and does not automatically hit on a natural roll of 20.

Or something to that effect.
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Felix_Zyphros
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the inspirations for Bo9S was anime actualy...

This is just brainstorming but here's an idea for the different sections of focus for the mystic-

Priest/Monk (perhaps introduce different faiths and abilities based off those)
Swordsman/Samurai (maybe a Ronin advanced class?)
Archer/Yokujin
Sorcerer/Shugenja

edit: Some more brainstorming

Perhaps each class has a certain path (such as those presented in the book, but a bit different) which decides how their abilities work. For instance, an Archer could choose between close in fighting, launching dozens of arrows at once, or shots from a distance. Shugenja could choose different elements to focus on or purely spiritual. Monk's could choose between seals, talismans, or transformations. For Samurai, there could be different martial arts styles such as the Mitsurugi or Voice of Heaven or even purely speed.

Again, purely brainstorming. I'm just throwing ideas out there hoping they might get used.
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I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not how things would work. If this goes at all, spiritual power would do things Chakra won't.

Chakra will form a huge fireball, create a huge earthquake. It'll let you break rocks with your fist, and walk on water.

Spiritual power will let you sense the tiniest ripple on a still lake, while in a meditative trance on a balcony overlooking it. It would let you levitate yourself to some extend. It would imbue you with the strength of a dozen men, in a way beyond the physical. It would break rocks for you, through your body.
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viruszero
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they showed something like in the last episode of naruto shippuden when Asuma used one of the other guardians techniques I mean I assume it was done with chakra as that's how they do most things but it seemed more like the spiritual power you are talking about coming from a prayer stance and based off a faith of the user
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sebsmith
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I understand correctly, the "Samurai" would let you be Lady Aska from Magic Knight Rayearth, Syaoran Li from Cardcaptor Sakura, or one of many other anime characters who aren't on the top of my head, right?
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must honestly that I approve of this idea. It defines a clear difference between shinobi and commoners, and with the eventual addition of 'Mystics', it adds a whole other dimension to the game, which I definitely approve of.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sebsmith wrote:
If I understand correctly, the "Samurai" would let you be Lady Aska from Magic Knight Rayearth, Syaoran Li from Cardcaptor Sakura, or one of many other anime characters who aren't on the top of my head, right?


I have no idea. I guess?

Athildur wrote:
I must honestly that I approve of this idea. It defines a clear difference between shinobi and commoners, and with the eventual addition of 'Mystics', it adds a whole other dimension to the game, which I definitely approve of.


That's the plan.
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Cold
Derp
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmm... At the momment, I like the old one, but still... it's on progress right...? I didn't put up my opinion yet (on the poll I mean) wanna see where it leads.

Pie.
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Hideko
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well i guess its not that shabby. I like the idea of giving "normal" people the chance of getting cool stuff. However, the question i have in mind is, will this be made with the "balance" in mind.
We can all agree that Shinobi is extremely strong. However, not that it should be posible to be strong using the spiritual engergy, but it shouldnt be as fast.

I could see the idea of using Chakra as more of a Spell component, and Spiritual energi used for body and mind power. meaning you can do just about anything with chakra, but spiritual energy is used to enhance only your own body, and not effect anything outside the body. meaning that the "self enhancement buff" will be way superiour to the chakra at the same level. This would mean that it might be stronger at the same level, but the versatility in chakra would mean you have many other posabilities... Or did i get it all wrong?
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Keldon_Draconian
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I must honestly that I approve of this idea. It defines a clear difference between shinobi and commoners


I agree with Athildur here.

However, there is only one thing i would not agree. Not only shinobi has chakra, but every human being. Sure, some shinobi, such as Naruto himself, has tons and tons more chakra than ordinary people, but every living being has its own chakra pool, chakra coil system and celestial gates. If Neji used his Byakugan to look at a shinobi and a commoner he should be able to see chakra flowing trough both men's bodies.

I would keep the chakra pool for commoners. Sure, they will never perform a Kage Bunshin no Jutsu... But having no chakra and no chakra coil system means that a fearsome huge swarm of kikaichuu would not even harm them? At least according to:

Quote:
As for draining chakra for creatures who don't have any, well, that's not possible.


So, i'd say that everyone, every living being should have its own chakra pool (Even something as low as 1 point per level, or 1 point per two levels rounded up).

There is a reasoning behind your own idea of the chakra vampire bloodline being able to drain chakra from trees. Trees (And every living being) have their own chakra, that would be the same as "life force". At least, that's how i see it. Remember that the whole "sage training" Naruto is going trough is about sensing the chakra of nature itself, and use it in place of his own. The difference between shinobi and ordinary people is that shinobi develop this energy to a greater degree and are able to tap upon it to perform superhuman abilities.

As i see it, chakra isn't something like "spell points", that only wizards/sorcerers/casters/whatever have.

I liked the idea, but i think that the chakra part could be done in a different way. So, my vote goes for the second option.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the motion passes, one thing is for sure that mundanes and mystics won't have chakra pool.

Chakra damage is most likely going to be translated as non-lethal damage.
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karsagon
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds very interesting. I do have some concerns though. Will there be any ways to "multiclass" from one to another? Say a person has trained as a shinobi, then he leaves his village and goes to train with a group of monks (Chiriku for example). Will there be anyway for a character to have both chakra and spiritual power? For instance in the BoNS, its a simple matter of multiclassing. But with Archetype system, that does not seem to be the case.

Also, I'm not sure if I agree that characters without shinobi archetype should not have chakra. I know in several instances of the anime and manga that it mentions all life has chakra. The most recent sage techniques for example take chakra not from the user but from the life and nature around the user. Also, in Rock Lee's case, he is not able to use ninja techniqies but he still has chakra, although he is not able to use it. What would the byakugan see on one of these other people? It was to my understanding the all people have tenketsu. Chakra is the energy that regulates the body. I think all characters should have it, but only shinobi characters have trained to use it for other purposes and develop it beyond the norm.

I like the addition of the spiritual energy. I do not like the idea to make mundane characters at all more powerful. A shinobi character would still rip apart a normal person. The only thing that makes them mundane is lack of training. With a permanent archetype system, there is no way a regular person could train as a ninja. I find the system interesting, but I also think it needs either a good bit of tweaking or make it an optional rule.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chakra is the body mixing physical energy and spiritual energy together. If everyone had chakra, then everyone would use it to some extent. A mundane person is mundane because it never trained its body to produce chakra.

A GM who is completely incapable of bending and properly using the rules to, say, allow an NPC to spend 6 months training to gain the Shinobi Archetype clearly shouldn't be a GM.

As for mixing the two, I didn't even make the system yet. I've already considered everything you're trying to say and I do have notes. If you'll STOP FOCUSING ON SPIRITUAL POWER for a moment and think of the archetypal system, which is the entire point of this, then that'd be great.

Mystic may not even be implemented at all. Geez.


EDIT: As for "everyone has chakra", then if you'd bothered to read the archetypes description then you lot would understand how I'm planning to make it work.

News flash, this isn't the anime. It's not the manga, either. The chakra system is somewhat close, but not at all like the actual thing's. I'm trying my hardest best to do something workable with what I have, but with your absolutely incomplete understanding of how chakra actually works in canon Naruto, you're not helping.

Seriously, people. This isn't debating the Spiritual Power system that doesn't even exist. This is for the idea of archetypes to be able to clearly define who is a shinobi and who isn't.
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karsagon
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A GM who is completely incapable of bending and properly using the rules to, say, allow an NPC to train to gain the Shinobi Archetype clearly shouldn't be a GM.


Does this mean that archetypes can be changed? Let me reword my first question. Will a character be able to gain multiple archetypes? (e. i. shinobi and mystic) You did say they were permanent. But I am unclear as to whether a character can train under one archetype and then train in another to gain both. That is my biggest concern.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It means that as a GM, there's absolutely nothing that prevents you from evolving an absolutely mundane ordinary NPC into a level 20 shinobi archetype super villain if you have a good reason or a need to.

Savvy?

No, you're NOT going to be able to gain two archetypes, or change your archetype. But through special training, unusual circumstances, you may be able to gain some aspects of another archetype, like Naruto's training with spiritual "chakra".
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karsagon
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. That answers my questions and concerns. With that said, I am going to have to say, as is I do not like this system. I feel like it further limits characters as to what they can choose to do with their characters. It's like a permanent class that you cannot multiclass away from. But that's just my style of game. I am not a fan of choosing one thing and sticking with it. I like some variation to further differentiate characters. Archetypes allow one basic direction to follow. My vote goes to: needs modification or optional rule.

EDIT
I would like to see how aspects of other archetypes could be gained, if possible. I know the archetype idea is not complete and my opinion may change with further development.
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sebsmith
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the reason why everyone is focusing on the potential archetype that doesn't exit yet is archetypes are only worth it if they do more than what could be done with a sidebar explained what to do when making a mundane character. Since the new thing they would allow to be done is the aforementioned archetype, they are trying to decide if the complication of the rules is worth this new feature.
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Shun
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only major problem I see is it makes Hyuuga useless versus your common folk as far as tenketsu go, except for maybe tiring the opponent out.
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Naruto20D20
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) I do approve of the system. As a GM, I understand how frustrating it is to make a 'Mystic' type character hold its own against shinobi without making it a much higher level. With the archetype it might help define their roles and abilities a little better.

2) I do wish that it could be changed so that it reflects the fact that everyone has and uses chakra to some extent. I can see how this could be a problem though.

3) Would Mystics be more like Mundanes in the sense that they get certain abilities every level, from their 'class', and only those abilities? OR, would they be more like Shinobi where they could train techniques to garner more abilities?

They could possibly be setup like 4E classes where they can choose between a number of abilities each level.
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swordwargirl444
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like that idea and the idea that there could be other arche types that could be use that have powers like samuri.
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swordwargirl444
Chuunin


Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like that idea and the idea that there could be other arche types that could be use that have powers like samuri.
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Otorzec
Genin


Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Poland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The system is imo good and i like it, but:

-as you said all chakra damage made to mundane and mystic characters would change to non-lethal damage so with that i think everybody should be ok

-archetypes will nicely combine ND20 with D20M so making future or modern sessions would be easier

-i think that there should be some training techniques that will allow geting some of other archetype's "powers"

-and at the end, imo there should be made some bonuses for mundane cuz as shinobi can shred them with ninjutsu, mystic would crash them with their spiritual power, mundane are imo underpowered in this situation, but im wondering how that idea will develope Smile
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Athildur
Sexually progressive Valkyrie


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 3196
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Otorzec: That's...sort of the point, isn't it?

Commoners will be less powerful than nin or mystics, but that doesn't stop them from taking levels in classes that give them HP, defense, saves and great proficiency with weapons or stealth.

The only thing they won't have is chakra or 'ki'-powered abilities that nin and mystics will have. That doesn't necessarily mean they're weak or can be easily dispatched by a nin or mystic.
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