Redefining Bow rules

Cold · Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: Redefining Bow rules

I'd like to have bows in my game and I'm pretty sure DnD rules for bow won't do good on Naruto setting, or any shounen based game... I talk about reloading=move action etc... Did someone considered it/given a thought?
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kp91 · Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject:

It used to be in the game, but was taken out. Not sure why.

Cold · Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject:

You mean there were tweaked mechanics for bows? Er... Frankto?
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kp91 · Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject:

Yes, since the d20 Modern bow is horrendous (since it's discouraged in a modern game as opposed to a gun and you are normal people, not ones who can load, shoot, and run in 6 seconds), and so there was a Naruto d20 feat called Kyuudo. This was removed in one of the more recent updates I think (last if my old saves are numbered right).

Athildur · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:32 am Post subject:

Well, consider that the only ranged weapons available at the moment are shuriken and kunai.

Both have very low damage (d3/d4, resp.), and a very low range.

Bows, on the other hand, have higher damage (d6/d8, perhaps even d10/d12 for a full body bow), a x3 critical, and a lot more range. You can see why making this weapon better would take some prerequisites for this campaign setting, as a good long-ranged weapon is something special.
(Not to mention the fact that if you use bows as taijutsu, you no longer really need ninjutsu for long-ranged attacks, which is quite an advantage)
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Frankto · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject:

Bows are already loaded as part of the firing action. It was my understanding of that rule that was flawed and prompted the feat, and my annoyance at someone who kept pestering me that made the cost so high.
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Cold · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject:

Yes they are, but at the cost of your movement, which is pressios for a ninja... Mobility...

Wow... To rip this part from a the book... no heart Frankto... It should have been the slug from the summons!
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Frankto · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject:

Don't be such a pussy and RTFM.

Daikyuu: This weapon can be loaded or reloaded as part of the firing process, which requires no action. The wielder does not apply his Strength score to damage with this weapon.

The japanese longbow has a rate of fire of 1, meaning that it cannot fire two shots with one attack even with feats that would normally allow it.
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Cold · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:13 am Post subject:

Oh... A keyboard thug... don't worry I got a dick

Btw, something I gotta know, how does full attack action works in ranged? can you shoot many arrows?
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Shun · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject:

Cold, it's all in the manual. You should have that phrase memorized by now.
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Max: I evade with a 13 and counter attack with a 1,000... *pause for silence*

Cold · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject:

Nope, I got the PHB right here, and on chap. 8, pg. 120-121 (Hebrew) - Attack Actions to Full Attack Action, there's no specific info about Long range FAA... and since... oh wait... my bad, Crossbows take action to reload... (That's about the other issue)
So it kinda explains the other issue although it's wierd to have someone pulling 3 arrows one after another before someone can make a move... unless the guy is REALLY slow...
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Shun · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject:

Long range full-attack is the same as melee full-attack with the "rate' dependent on the weapon. I don't see how it's hard to understand, the weapons say in the description you can basically reload as a free action, though apparently not clear enough. Confused

You just can't use multiple arrows in a single attack roll.
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Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

Sengoku System
Me: the hizoku attacks you with his yari, your actions?

Max: I evade with a 13 and counter attack with a 1,000... *pause for silence*

Cold · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject:

Well lets have an example, an Archer stands 40ft, thats 12M, away from a bandit with an axe. Initiative, Archer won, and since ge got triple BAB score, he shots three arrows, the bandit charges at the archer.

These are their actions, now, if you got a crazy football thug rushing at you at top speed from not so far away, how you pull an arrow, aim and fire X3? you sure gotta have some speed ranks, right...?
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Shun · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject:

No, that's what initiative is for.
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Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

Sengoku System
Me: the hizoku attacks you with his yari, your actions?

Max: I evade with a 13 and counter attack with a 1,000... *pause for silence*

Athildur · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject:

Firing three arrows -> throwing three shuriken/kunai -> performing a technique of high level -> making three attacks with your sword.

They are all the same basic thing. With an enemy bashing in your skull, taking three swings at him during your turn without interrupting is just as odd.

However, a proper system that would further subdivide rounds and turns into individual actions and when they go off is very confusing and complicated. Not to mention that it wouldn't be very user-friendly.

Firing a single arrow takes as much time as swinging a sword once. Therefor, logically, firing three arrows takes as much time as swinging the sword three times.

But hey, if you really want to limit yourself to shooting only one arrow a turn, don't let me spoil the fun, hrm?
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Cold · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:47 am Post subject:

lol and another lol...

How did you get to this?! swinging a sword=Firing an arrow?! no way you can pull an arrow, aim and fire at the same speed you swing a sword!
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Athildur · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject:

No. But both an attack action with a sword and that with a bow have the same action. This indicates that they take about the same time, ruleswise.
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Keldon_Draconian · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject:

Cold · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject:

dude, I speak logicly... how would you go that fast

and I will... Smile

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kp91 · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject:

I believe this requires a quote (or paraphrase of the quote I'm thinking of rather):

"DnD tries to replicate fantasy adventures, not real life"

Cold · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject:

yeah but still.... You seek some sort of reality right?
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Athildur · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject:

Yes. And in those games you get plenty of it.

You can die. You can get very injured. You can have your strength sapped out of you, etc etc and so on.

Realism is semi-important. It's good to feel like a game is real and that your character is real, that dangers are real etc etc and so on.

Realism is not, however, more important than balancing the rules. If bows took much longer to shoot, they would quickly become useless in comparison.

The key is to find proper balance between reality and balance of rules. I would hope that you would agree that limiting the bow to a single shot that'd take a full-round to shoot is not very balanced against anyone swinging a random melee weapon, or throwing a thrown weapon, three to four times in an even shorter time.

Unless you can say that bow users are totally imbalanced because of the rules, I don't think anything should be done.
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kp91 · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject:

Spend 30-300 years training with a bow and see how quickly you can fire.

Athildur · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject:

And, indeed.

Most people who do archery for sports haven't trained all day, every day since they were about fourteen until their now adult ages.
And then still, the people who do archery for sports nowadays don't shoot quickly because there's a need to perform better. Whereas a ranger would aim at 'the target' in general, the sports archer shoots at 'the bull's-eye'. In other words, they take the extra time to aim at that center because they have the time, and the pressure to perform as best as they can to score points.

In combat, it's most certainly less important that you hit the goblin in its left eye than it is to hit the goblin in general. After years of shooting, a character hardly needs to aim his bow with arrow knocked anymore. The years of shooting on and off have resulted in perfect stance and alignment, so that the only thing the archer really needs to pay attention to is picking a spot to shoot at.

Aside from that, years upon years of training teach you how far an arrow can go, how the wind influences the arrow's flight, how height makes a difference, etc and so on.
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Oy, this is going to be troublesome *sigh*

Shun · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject:

I have been trying to find it for the past two hours but all that comes up is irrelevant pages. big suprise.. Rolling Eyes

anyways, I was going to point out that the mongol archers could fire something like one shot per 2.5 seconds making them scary as hell. But if anyone can verify it that would be awesome, there was some guy on the history channel that was doing it (on horse back). It may of been a old show but it's modern film.
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Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

Sengoku System
Me: the hizoku attacks you with his yari, your actions?

Max: I evade with a 13 and counter attack with a 1,000... *pause for silence*