Donate - narutod20 Store - Log in - Register - Profile - Log in, check your inbox - FAQ - Search - Members - Groups

New this week: New Year Sale at the Naruto d20 Store! Happy New Year, everyone!

Overpowered rangers

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Narutod20.com Forum Index -> 4th Edition Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Faran Kredo
Younin


Joined: 04 May 2011
Posts: 395
Location: Mentally or physically?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Overpowered rangers Reply with quote

Rangers are overpowered due to that power where they can shoot two arrows, doing 2d10+dex mod at will. This is my opinion, agree or disagree?
_________________
You've gotta love that moment when you make the BBEG do a double take in the middle of their monologue...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jensik
Sharkbait


Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 1810
Location: The Internet

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 4E? Rangers are a Striker class; they're supposed to deal damage. Damage output in this system is just plain high. 2d10+Dex really isn't that much in the long run.
_________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, because sometimes the 'm' is silent.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
ZeronosVega
The Tank


Joined: 10 Dec 2009
Posts: 836
Location: Thomasville, Georgia

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jensik pretty much summed it up. 4E has greater numbers all around. Just look at any well-built Tank class and you'll find that 2d10+Dex won't make so much as a dent in their HP.
_________________
ZeronosVega's Creation Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Shun
Shinobigami


Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 1262
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When compared to other striker classes, Ranger isn't that bad. I always go for Ranger, Fighter and Rogue characters in any D&D system. May I ask what brough this up?
_________________

Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

Sengoku System
Me: the hizoku attacks you with his yari, your actions?

Max: I evade with a 13 and counter attack with a 1,000... *pause for silence*
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Faran Kredo
Younin


Joined: 04 May 2011
Posts: 395
Location: Mentally or physically?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started to type a post arguing, but then I realised that with optimisation, a rogue can pull off (2d8+str mod+ (weapon die) + dex mod + cha mod) if they build slightly unwisely and have combat advantage (unwise because a brawny rogue should not take sly flourish) however, remove the unwisely and the str mod and you get what a charismatic rogue would get. However I just realised the problem here. First off, a rogue has barely any hit points compared to the ranger, and they are also proficient with far worse weapons. Also they have to have combat advantage, otherwise it is bye bye 2d8 and without that bonus, a rogue can only output at best (weapon die)+cha mod+dex mod. This is generally going to be about 1d4+7 overall if optimised. This looks abysmal when compared to the 16 average damage that a ranger can give at ranges of 40 squares (20 for short range) I still stick to my previous statement.
_________________
You've gotta love that moment when you make the BBEG do a double take in the middle of their monologue...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
black_fox9653
Special Jounin


Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also for the record, Twin Strike does not add their dex (or str seeming it can be used to make melee attack as well) to the damage. Its just the weapon damage of the weapon used done to the enemy for each attack that hits.
_________________
"Aut Vincere Aut Mori"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Faran Kredo
Younin


Joined: 04 May 2011
Posts: 395
Location: Mentally or physically?

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I didn't notice that, I take back my earlyer statement, everything is good with rangers, (in answer to your question Shun it watrys because a group of beginner D&D people who had just learned the rules properly, and that I Dm for, came to me begging to all be rangers, and I did some research, and that was the main thing that struck me as OP, I was putting this post out to see if I should all let them power game (cause they are all massive power gamers, it gets on my nerves sometimes when they try and kill random people "for the xp" and complain whenever i award more xp to somebody else when "I did more work" I am trying to finish my campaign with them, then I will probably not Dm seriously for them again. (another thing that once happened to give an example, was that one of them had been shrunk, and so was having an epic battle against... a grasshopper. One of his teamates just squashed the grasshopper, after noticing what was going on. I awarded the shrunk one some xp for his battle, the one who had sqaushed it it then complained that he had actually killed it, and i had to calmly repeat that he had not actually done anything that might give him more EXPERIENCE, until eventually I just gave him a single xp, and then he was content to sit down and quitly fume.) What with all this, the constant trying to turn D&D into minecraft, and the constant purposefully stupid choices, it is a wonder that they are at the gaming table, and not sitting at a screen and playing a computor game. Please excuse my furious rant.
_________________
You've gotta love that moment when you make the BBEG do a double take in the middle of their monologue...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ZeronosVega
The Tank


Joined: 10 Dec 2009
Posts: 836
Location: Thomasville, Georgia

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know that, as DM, you can easily discourage such behavior. Don't make earning XP an automatic reward for killing a creature. While it may work for video games, a role-playing game is far more dynamic and complex.

Your example with the grasshopper is more-or-less what I'm talking about: when a player or players have a challenging encounter, award them for meeting or exceeding the challenge. The player who merely squished the creature should be denied experience, as it was literally squishing a bug. Now, if you really want to teach them a lesson, allow them to go on a killing spree or do whatever it is that they like to do. After all, such acts are not without punishment and surely the 'law' will come down on them. Acts of violence such as that do not go without consequence, especially if there is a ruling kingdom or law-establishing body of government. And by all means, shift their alignments so that the Paladins have an easier time with them.

And when you make such lengthy posts, could you please break it up into paragraphs. I had to re-read your post three times in order to make complete sense of it, as I kept losing my place.
_________________
ZeronosVega's Creation Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Faran Kredo
Younin


Joined: 04 May 2011
Posts: 395
Location: Mentally or physically?

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. I don't, but they complain so much that eventually it is easier to just give out a single xp,
2. Unfortunately, in the campaign that I am running there is no real governmenting body, due to an outbreak of what I call the infected (not quite zombies, but close enough)
3. Again unfortunately, there are only a few real warriors wandering round, and they always stay clear of anything that actually looks like a challenge.
4. If I do stuff like that to them, they complain.
5. If I do anything that they really don't like, they complain
6. sorry about not breaking it up
7. please excuse the rant again
_________________
You've gotta love that moment when you make the BBEG do a double take in the middle of their monologue...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ZeronosVega
The Tank


Joined: 10 Dec 2009
Posts: 836
Location: Thomasville, Georgia

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1. I don't, but they complain so much that eventually it is easier to just give out a single xp.


That's just encouraging the behavior. Don't let their complaints run YOUR game. Rather, encourage them by awarding experience when they've done something meaningful or something which progresses the story.

Quote:
2. Unfortunately, in the campaign that I am running there is no real governmenting body, due to an outbreak of what I call the infected (not quite zombies, but close enough)


Even without a governing body, people still want justice and vengeance. Have a bounty set on their heads by a surviving family member or have the surviving family member want to exact revenge. There are ways.

Quote:
3. Again unfortunately, there are only a few real warriors wandering round, and they always stay clear of anything that actually looks like a challenge.


Then the real question is, what is their main goal/purpose? Generally, striving for said goal will present them will challenges. It's kind of the point of RPGs. Granted, there are many ways something can be challenging and not all of them have to involve combat.

For example, you could have them do some classic dungeon crawling though a cave filled with nothing but traps. Why? Because inside is a map which will lead them to the location of their next goal. The point being, they cannot run away from everything and there are plenty of ways to do so without making it a "I'm the DM, so you have to go here" situation.

Quote:
4. If I do stuff like that to them, they complain.
5. If I do anything that they really don't like, they complain


As for this, tough luck. Just because they are your players, they need to realize that you are running the show. Now, this doesn't mean to act like a tyrant. But again, there are consequences for any action; alignment shifting being one outlined in the book. After all, a Lawful Good (or whatever 4E uses as its alignment system) individual would not slaughter a random person for a meta-game reward. It's used to reflect their actions as characters and they need to understand that.

Generally speaking, even in a post-apocalyptic world there will be individuals who will want to try and bring about order. The Brotherhood of Steel from the Fallout series is a prime example of this. Their scope is somewhat limited due to what lives in the wasteland, but commit such an act in their territory and there'll be hell to pay.
_________________
ZeronosVega's Creation Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Faran Kredo
Younin


Joined: 04 May 2011
Posts: 395
Location: Mentally or physically?

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now here is the real catch (thankyou for the advice BTW) I am no good at dming for evil chars, so even though they already want to be evil, I don't allow it. Don't worry though, since I wil bring this game to a close soon. On an unrelated note, does anybody know any good tips for dming evil characters.

Edit: don't say that here, say it in my new post. In d20 general
_________________
You've gotta love that moment when you make the BBEG do a double take in the middle of their monologue...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Felix_Zyphros
Shinobigami


Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 1049
Location: Village Hidden in the Night

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can pull off 1d12+7 damage with my Avenger at 5th level on every attack, rolling two dice to hit on every attack with Oath up.
_________________
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

? Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Dune

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Faran Kredo
Younin


Joined: 04 May 2011
Posts: 395
Location: Mentally or physically?

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah ok, I was just a little suspicious about rangers, but I admit, they aren't broken.
_________________
You've gotta love that moment when you make the BBEG do a double take in the middle of their monologue...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Shun
Shinobigami


Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 1262
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zerono's pretty much much laid it all out, but to add on; as far as their complaining goes always remember you can get new players. Unless you live in an area with a lack of... then that sucks and you just need to show them you won't break to their whims.

Edit: you can even take out XP and level based on the scenario. Granted you have to be careful in taht manner because it sometimes create a sense of "speed levels" to new/ignorant players.
_________________

Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

Sengoku System
Me: the hizoku attacks you with his yari, your actions?

Max: I evade with a 13 and counter attack with a 1,000... *pause for silence*
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Jensik
Sharkbait


Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 1810
Location: The Internet

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or, if you'd like to resolve this in a slightly less dick-ish fashion, remind your players that you're in this to have fun just like they are. Gaming is a two way street. You don't have to be the one that bends all the time. If your game has gone to shit and you dread the time you spend around the table, just walk away. You'll find your life a lot less stressful.

Keep in mind however that this decision should not be made lightly. "Rocks fall, everybody dies" exists for a reason. Just make it the right reason.
_________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, because sometimes the 'm' is silent.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Narutod20.com Forum Index -> 4th Edition Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group, Theme by GhostNr1