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SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 2654

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taking damage is not a cost of the technique, so no, you don't take damage ever from your clone using Kage Mane.
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Shogimaru
ANBU Captain


Joined: 24 Mar 2011
Posts: 179
Location: Sunny San Diego

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I missed something, I don't post much because I'm often wrong about these things, but I would argue you would take the damage. Kage Bunshin states the user suffers all drawbacks of a technique used by his clone, and without mastery in Kage Mane the user suffers the same damage as the target. The way I see it is, if your clone is in the AoE and fails its save, then no, you don't take the damage. But if the opponent caught by kage mane takes damage from Goukakyuu, and your clone fails its concentration check, you and your clone suffer damage (no save).

I also don't believe a clone can use Kage Mane since they can only use techniques under rank 4. Though it can if you know Kyouka Kage Bunshin. (I think that's what it's called)

Edit: Though until eight level, you could use kage mane and have a clone follow up with an attack. You'll be more likely to pass the concentration check that way.
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keksmuzh
Kage


Joined: 15 Apr 2010
Posts: 296

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kyouka Kage Bunshin will allow the clones to use techniques of Rank 6 or lower (KKB is itself a Rank 8 S-class tech though).

The simpler way to do this is to just use Kage Mane yourself, and let your clones beat on the target once you're confident you can succeed the concentration checks consistently. With enough clones you can use a couple as bodyguards and the rest as a hit squad while you have the target bound (or let other party members help with it).
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PsionicFox
Genin


Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, I read 'under rank 4' as 'rank 4 or below' for some reason.

And so it seems I was right at least in that if I hit my target with an attack while they're held by my clone, I will still suffer the damage as long as the clone is running my Kage Mane technique.

Oh well - there goes that tactic.
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keksmuzh
Kage


Joined: 15 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, it's simpler if you're the one running the tech, and your clones/allies do the damage.
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PsionicFox
Genin


Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. I was just enamoured of the idea of blowing people up once they were trapped in my clone's kage mane through clever use of positioning and tactics. Although clones can be used to extend my range, which is nice.
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keksmuzh
Kage


Joined: 15 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, that's even easier. Just have your clones make the skill checks to arm crafted bombs while the target is trapped. Or have your clone grapple a target, you tag with Kage Mane, then have a different clone trigger a Kage Bunshin Sai. There are a bunch of tricks for the kage bunshins to visit exploding murder upon your enemies.
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PsionicFox
Genin


Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still have to resist the damage though. The goal was to be sneaky and awesome, thus avoiding the need for me to suffer damage.

But your thing would be: Catch target with Kage Mane -> Send Kage Bunshin to grapple -> Release Kage Mane -> Explode clone/use other awesome damage power?

The main thing is do deny/penalise reflex saves, or to force a flat-footed defense with kage bunshins and kage mane. Because I'm nasty like that.
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TheTrulyAvaricious
Bijuu/Tailed Beast


Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, that sucks for earlier levels, but do notice one very important thing: The Concentration Check is set to DC 20, regardless of the amount of damage. So, for your early levels, yeah you will be rolling on a wing and a prayer, hoping to God you don't fail that check. But, as your level grows, it stops mattering. So, for 20 skill points, (maybe less, depending on your Con modifier and other miscellaneous bonuses), you can ignore all damage every time. As long as you don't roll a 1, or you have some HORRIBLE negative modifier.

In all honesty, it could be far worse. Such as the DC being based upon the amount of damage suffered. For a Rank 4 technique, Kage Mane no Jutsu is pretty solid, and still proves useful far further on in the game than most.

And once you've caught them, you pretty much deny them their Dex bonus. Most GM's would impose a Reflex save penalty in the very least for being unable to move. And Kage Bunshin Sai explicity states a target grappled suffers -4 to the save, while pinned counts as -8. Depending on how nice your GM is, they may count the Kage Mane as one, the other or neither.

In short, the Concentration check only sucks early on, when your roll is likely to be pitiful at best. But, in the unlikely occasion you pin someone who then gets blasted by the Kyuubi's Bijuu Dama, you'd STILL only have to make a DC 20 check not to take the damage? Your getting off pretty fucking lightly.

Also, nice keksmuzh. Exploding murder is now the reason the Nara's are so much higher on my "Respected Ninja Techniques" list. For versatility. And death.
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keksmuzh
Kage


Joined: 15 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly, the maneuvers are more or less impossible to pull off until you get your concentration skill bonus into the mid teens, at which point it becomes fairly reliable. So once you hit level 10 or so you should be able to pull it off. The problem is not that the maneuver can't be done, but that it's sorta slow/inefficient, and can't be done reliably until a certain level threshold.

At the same time, replicating Shikamaru's defeat of Hidan in terms of tactical badassery is incredibly tempting.

@Avaricious: Even if he rolls a 1, he can still pass with 19 concentration: skill checks can't autofail by core.
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TheTrulyAvaricious
Bijuu/Tailed Beast


Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bollocks, your right. You can tell its been a long day.

Well, keksmuzh swift recovery on my little brain fart there just eliminated a major drawback. Go for it. The Shadow Jutsu are badass, and with a little practice in certain maneuvors, you should be showing even the party tank a thing or two in the fine art of total havoc.

Besides, exploding murder! What's not to love
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PsionicFox
Genin


Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have Kage Mane mastered yet. But for now, I can do the following:

Turn 1: Grab target with Kage Mane -> Clone initiates grapple (auto success) -> Turn 2: Release Kage Mane (target is still grappled), use Kage Bunshin Sai-> do buttloads of damage -> laugh maniacally.
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Frankto
Shinobigami


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 7362
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An immobilized target can be grabbed, but not grappled. The grappling starts when the immobilization stops, and opposed rolls must still be made.
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keksmuzh
Kage


Joined: 15 Apr 2010
Posts: 296

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll be guzzling chakra like it's water, but it's a good way to bring the pain.

The main drawback is going to be your crappy grapple score with this build, since as Frankto mentioned you do still have to make opposed rolls.
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PsionicFox
Genin


Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn. And here I was thinking I could circumvent some rules to be awesome. Oh well. At least I know now, thanks Frankto.

Still, my worst-case scenario with this trick is: "Congratulations! You evaded my attempts to grapple you. What a shame my clone is going to explode anyway!" *BOOM*

Also, a Chakra Vampire with the Kage Mane technique, there's a hilarious thought. Since you just ate all their chakra by placing a hand on them. Which they copy, but cannot consume your energy, bwahahaha.
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