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Kensoku: Ougi - Shunshin Rendan vs Combat Reflexes

 
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diremage
Genin


Joined: 06 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Kensoku: Ougi - Shunshin Rendan vs Combat Reflexes Reply with quote

OK, so in this campaign I'm playing, my level 10 PC is fighting a higher-level NPC with character class levels. During the fight, the NPC uses Kensoku: Ougi - Shunshin Rendan (at caster level TWENTY EIGHT) and alternates his 14 attacks between me, my ally, and two summons. In all, he hits me five times, and he moves off to hit someone else between each hit.

My character has Combat Reflexes and a dex of 19 (so, 5 AoO's per turn). My question is, would you allow my character one attack, five attacks, or no attacks of opportunity against this NPC?

Because this guy is critical to the plot, I expect the DM to rule that he won't die. But I'm curious how other people interpret the rules as written.


Quote:
Combat Reflexes

Benefit: The maximum number of attacks of opportunity the character may make each round is equal to the character's Dexterity modifier + 1. The character can still only make one attack of opportunity on a single opponent. With this feat, the character may also make attacks of opportunity when flat-footed.

Normal: A character without the Combat Reflexes feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can't make attacks of opportunity when flat-footed.

Special: The Combat Reflexes feat doesn't allow a Fast hero with the opportunist talent to use that talent more than once per round.
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cmkawasaki
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Kensoku: Ougi - Shunshin Rendan is basically a taijutsu version of a Chain Lightning like attack. You don't get to alternate multiple attacks onto a single person.

2) There is no AoO provoked, so you get no AoO's. That is standard for most jutsu that include movement, unless ruled otherwise.
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diremage
Genin


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that would make sense. I was reading that since the movement was performed as though with Shunpo, and Shunpo provokes an attack if you begin a jump in a threatened square, then Shunshin Rendan would provoke an attack when the caster left a threatened square during the course of the technique. Your way makes more sense though, because otherwise Shunshin Rendan would be an extremely hazardous technique to use.

I can't find anywhere in the rules that says you can't target someone more than once, and when I checked the d20srd description for chain lightning it specifically mentions that you can only attack a given target once. Can you point me to somewhere that actually mentions the 'chain lightning' rule you posted so I can show my GM?
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cmkawasaki
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diremage wrote:
Yes, that would make sense. I was reading that since the movement was performed as though with Shunpo, and Shunpo provokes an attack if you begin a jump in a threatened square, then Shunshin Rendan would provoke an attack when the caster left a threatened square during the course of the technique. Your way makes more sense though, because otherwise Shunshin Rendan would be an extremely hazardous technique to use.

I can't find anywhere in the rules that says you can't target someone more than once, and when I checked the d20srd description for chain lightning it specifically mentions that you can only attack a given target once. Can you point me to somewhere that actually mentions the 'chain lightning' rule you posted so I can show my GM?


Are you serious? You really think you can target someone more than once? As a GM, one should note that makes certain jutsus completely unbalanced if any other interpretation is allowed. Godai Ransatsu: Nidan Jutsu would deal up to 40d6 damage to a single person for 11 chakra if that was the case.

You're right in that it's not called out explicitly in the rules; However, common sense must be applied.
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keksmuzh
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if you DID get to make AoOs, you would only get one:

Quote:
Combat Reflexes
You can respond quickly when opponents let their guard down.
Benefit: The maximum number of attacks of opportunity the character may make each round is equal to the character’s Dex modifier +1. The character can still only make one attack of opportunity on a single opponent.

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Dairius_Chi
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's an old technique so the wording isn't pristine, but in the table above where it mentions you can target X Secondary Targets(all of which must be within 20ft of each other) then it's just generally understood that secondary targets can only be hit once each- this holds true for every other technique that works similarly...

Basically...someone cannot be 3 secondary targets, thus they cannot be hit by 3 of the secondary attacks, does that help?
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keksmuzh
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dairius_Chi wrote:
Basically...someone cannot be 3 secondary targets, thus they cannot be hit by 3 of the secondary attacks, does that help?


This. Your GM is doing it wrong, and as has been stated above is breaking the technique pretty horribly. Also, why are you fighting an epic level character at level 10?
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are doing it very, very, very, very wrong.


Your GM should have been ready to rip whoever even had the nerve to try this a new one the size of pluto--the very fact that it's your GM who did this (at nearly three times your CL, no less) tells me you should run away from that game as fast as your legs will carry you.


And no, even with Combat Reflexes, you can only make an attack of opportunity against the same person once per round.

This basically confirms what everyone else has been telling you, but there it is. Although I'm curious as to why you think you being able to make 5 AoOs could possibly get you anywhere against a CR 28 enemy at level 10. I don't know how your GM makes 'em, but...
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diremage
Genin


Joined: 06 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Frankto and everyone. Since the GM and I are both new to the game, and we both thought it was a reasonable interpretation of the RAW, do you think it would be a good idea to add the 'no target can be struck more than once' verbiage to the chain lightning-type spells?

Regarding running away from the game really really fast, he was floundering a bit because we had just ripped his Big Bad a new hole, and he didn't want the boss to die just yet. So he wanted to use the technique to K.O. two of the PC's and let the boss taunt the ones who were left before running for his life. I suspect the Big Bad can't normally cast at that level. Laughing

It's a game over on Myth Weavers in case anyone would like me to PM them a link to it.
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keksmuzh
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It should be obvious that the tenant needs to be added/understood in order to balance things. In the future, whenever a description states that you pick multiple targets, it should be understood that a single target cannot be targeted more than once unless otherwise stated.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It already has.
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Faran Kredo
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I can say is what I have done to my dm on several occasions (or at least once)... Fight utter rule breaking with my own brand of rule breaking (effectively utilising his last rule break). We were both in hysterics. (the rest of the team couldn't even figure out what was going on)
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