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Weapon Sizes, Oversized, and Fullblades

 
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welknair
Genin


Joined: 11 Mar 2010
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject: Weapon Sizes, Oversized, and Fullblades Reply with quote

Recently picked back up the game and I'm trying to wrap my head around how weapon sizes work, specifically interacting with the Fullblade, the Oversized type, and the various associated feats. Below I'm going to list my current understanding of each of these elements, as well as my confusions as I try to figure this out. All statements below are assuming a medium-sized character.

-Weapon Sizes: You can obtain weapons which are made for creatures not medium-sized. Larger and smaller versions of a given weapon result in damage increasing or decreasing accordingly. If you are using an inappropriately sized weapon, you have a cumulative -2 for each size category off.

Now we have this line: "Whether a weapon is considered a light weapon is altered by one step per size category of difference between the weapon's size and the size of the character wielding it." I'm pretty sure this is saying that if you have a weapon that was previously one-handed for a medium sized creature, upping it to Large makes it a two-handed weapon. As-written though, it only seems to alter whether or not the weapon is a light weapon, which is a bit strange.


-Monkey Grip: This feat lets players treat large and huge weapons as being one step lighter. However, it's specifically phrased in terms of weapon sizes. This seems to not be referencing creature-sizes though, but rather is referencing item-sizes, where a Light weapon is a small-sized object, a one-handed is medium, a two-handed is large, and so on. So when it says a player can wield a Huge weapon with two hands, this is a weapon which would be a two-handed weapon for a Large-sized creature. So with Monkey Grip you could two-hand a large-sized weapon. Interestingly, the feat makes no mention to weapons that are medium sized being treated as light weapons, which would have been in keeping with the "treat all weapons as one step lighter".

This requires differentiating weapons sized for a creature from weapon sizes as object-sizes. I think that was the distinction that was trying to be conveyed under the weapon-size damage table, but it isn't terribly clear and required a bit of puzzling out that these were different things.


-Oversized: A weapon property, applied like a material during crafting. Causes the weapon to be treated as one size category larger, but instead of increased damage, grants the weapon reach if it didn't already have it. Additionally, you receive a -4 nonproficiency penalty if you don't have the Oversized Weapon Proficiency feat. So an oversized one-handed (medium) weapon becomes wielded as a two-handed (large) weapon, and as such Monkey Grip is necessary if you want an Oversized version of a default two-handed weapon, as it becomes Huge. This kind of segues into-

-Oversized Weapon Proficiency: A feat which allows the proficient wielding of oversized weapon. We know from the description of the oversized weapon property that this counteracts the -4 penalty you'd otherwise suffer when using that property. However, it remains unclear whether you need this feat for regular use of inappropriately sized weapons. There's a quote from SirShadow in this thread where he states that Oversized Weapon Proficiency isn't intended only for weapons with the oversized property. However, I can find no reference anywhere else of inappropriately sized weapons suffering from this nonproficiency penalty, only weapons with the oversized property. So either all oversized weapons suffer a -4 penalty without this feat, which seems both excessive due to the already existent -2 cumulative penalty and the requirement of Monkey Grip, or only weapons with the oversized property call for the use of this feat, in which case that property is way more trouble than it's worth, as it's at best a side-grade from just using a vanilla weapon one-step larger.

-Oversized Weapon Mastery: Allows the wielding of oversized weapons in one hand, and "weapons one size category larger are now treated as light weapons". This again runs into what is or is not an oversized weapon. The strictest reading is that only weapons with the oversized property are oversized, as the term oversized is never stated elsewhere to also reference inappropriately large weapons. That said, this is a bit strange if, for example, you were previously using an Oversized version of a default light-weapon; you could already use it one-handed. Why not just treat oversized weapons the way you treat all inappropriately sized weapons? The second line is very similar to the line we saw earlier in the initial information on weapon-sizes. As-written, it seems to indicate that weapons that were previously one-handed are now Light, and makes no reference to any other size of weapon. This seems bizarre, that it only affects this specific size of weapon. I think it may have been intended as essentially Monkey Grip 2.0, where you treat the weapon as two sizes smaller for the purposes of wielding them, though its specific reference to only light weapons may have been intended to fill in the gap mentioned above in Monkey Grip, where as-written Monkey Grip doesn't make default one-handed weapons become light weapons. A third reading is that when it says "weapons one size category larger," it's meaning one size larger than the wielder, not one size category than you could previously wield as light. This would mean that a weapon that was previously two-handed for someone without any of these feats now is light. If this is the case, it is further unclear whether this shifts down any other categories of weapons (was a Huge-sized item, IE a two-handed weapon for a large creature, now made into a one-handed weapon for a medium creature with this feat?)

-Fullblade:
Quote:
This weapon is an enormous sword that requires great skill to be used properly. The wielder takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls from using an improperly-sized weapon unless he takes the Exotic Melee Weapon Proficiency feat for the fullblade.

The Monkey Grip feat does not allow the wielder to use this weapon one-handed, but allows a larger or oversized fullblade to be used at a -2 penalty. The wielder is only considered proficient in the fullblade if he takes the Exotic Melee Weapon Proficiency
feat.

Okay, it's unclear what the actual item-size of this weapon is, given that at the top it specifies that you suffer the -2 penalty for an improperly sized weapon, but you can cancel that penalty by.. taking EWP? Then we have the odd interaction with Monkey Grip, where even though it's a default two-handed weapon, Monkey grip doesn't let you use it one-handed, but DOES let you use a larger or oversized version two-handed. So this would seem to imply that the Fullblade is a Large-sized weapon like other two-handed weapons, and thus a version made for a large-sized creature or an oversized one would be a huge-sized item, and thus two-hand-able via Monkey Grip.


To summarize my questions:
1. Do inappropriately large weapons suffer from the same -4 proficiency penalty that oversized weapons do without the oversized weapon proficiency feat? If yes, why add extra penalties on top of the cumulative -2 and need for monkey grip? If no, then why add a feat-tax specifically to use the oversized weapon property which isn't much better than just a weapon one step larger?

2. Does Monkey Grip make one-handed weapons light?

3. What exactly does Oversized Weapon Mastery do? Does it only do one-handed->light, affect all weapon sizes, render huge-sized items light weapons, and in the case of the last one, does it adjust other weapon sizes down as well?

4. What size item is a Fullblade?

5. Is there any way to feasibly wield a Fullblade made for a Huge-sized creature (gargantuan-sized item)? If Monkey Grip and Oversized Weapon Mastery both cause all weapons to be treated as one step smaller, and fullblades are a default of a large-sized item (that's three big "if"s), then it should hypothetically be possible?

6. Why is there no simply feat that reduces the cumulative -2 penalty for wielding large things? In other editions of D&D, this is what the Oversized Weapon Proficiency feat does, which is nice and simple.

7. Would it be possible to clarify the language in the core rulebook to make all of these interactions more clear?

Thank you![/quote]
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SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


Joined: 10 May 2009
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Weapon Sizes, Oversized, and Fullblades Reply with quote

Your confusion seems to step around the different feats, so let me try to clarify that all for you. It also seems like you are getting the weapon size and the size of the creature it was made for a little mixed up as well.

Monkey Grip
Basically the only benefit of this feat is that it allows you to wield a Large weapon with one hand. If you go to the equipment list, you can see all the different sizes of the weapons. An example of large weapons would be Kanabo, Large Katana, Naginatas, War Fans, etc. Normally you need two hands to wield these weapons. With the Monkey Grip feat, it only takes one, so you could, in theory, dual-wield kanabo, large katana, naginata (or other spears), and war fans, etc.

Note, this is ONLY talking about the size of the weapon itself and not the creature it was made for. A medium creature with this feat can wield large weapons that were made for medium creatures in one hand. A large creature with this feat can wield large weapons that were made for large creatures in one hand.

Also, the only reason it mentions huge-sized weapons is to clarify that they still require two hands to wield, it does nothing to change the rules regarding them.

Oversized Weapon Mastery
This feat only really has 2 properties in terms of gameplay.

1) You can wield weapons with the Oversized property in one hand. Weapons that cannot normally be wielded one-handed still require two hands to use.

These two sentences should be taken together. Normally the Oversized weapon property forces you to wield the Oversized weapon with two hands regardless of what it was previously, so say an Oversized Kunai or an Oversized Chokuto that was made for a Medium creature has to be held in two hands even though its normal version would be able to be wielded with one hand.

In essence, this feat allows you to wield your one-handed Oversized weapon with one hand instead of two.

2) The user treats weapons one size-category larger as Light weapons.

This just allows you to treat weapons that are one size category larger as light weapons for the purpose of two-weapon fighting. It's not a huge benefit, except it just allows you increase the number of types of weapons you can feasibly dual wield by reducing the penalty to dual wielding.

This is also the reason it says that weapons that normally require two hands to use still do so that there is no confusion about whether or not you should be able to wield a light weapon with one hand even though its meant for two. That's why you would need Monkey Grip.

Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
This feat may seem a little redundant, and it is to an extent, except when you combine it with the other two feats. The primary benefit of this feat is when you have the previous two, it allows you two dual-wield two Oversized weapons without any penalties. The draw of this feat is that it allows you to treat ANYTHING you can wield with one hand as though it were a light weapon.

Now let's move on to your questions:

1) When a Medium creature attempts to wield a weapon for a Large-sized creature, they suffer the -2 penalty. Monkey Grip does not help them. Monkey grip only effects weapons for Medium creature that have the large size (as per the equipment section). Oversized Weapon proficiency does allow you to overcome this penalty.

However, the penalties are cumulative if a Medium creature was attempting to wield an Oversized Weapon that was made for a Large creature.

2) No, it does not, that's what Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting does.

3) This should have been fully explained above, your original confusion seemed to stem from difference between large-sized weapons and weapons made for large creatures.

4) Fullblades are Huge items, you can see that in the equipment section.

5) Short answer is yes, but you have to be a Large creature to do it. Long answer is no, medium creatures cannot. Even with Monkey Grip and Oversized two-weapon fighting, a medium creature can still only wield a fullblade that was made for a Large creatures without penalties (and they still need 2 hands to do it).

6) It does, I know the wording may not be super clear, but it does.

7) I hope I did.
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welknair
Genin


Joined: 11 Mar 2010
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much for your quick and thorough reply!

Monkey Grip
Ahhhhh, okay. That makes more sense. I hadn't properly noticed the listed sizes when going through this, and that helps a fair deal.

On the topic of huge weapons, if I'm reading rules correctly, medium sized creatures cannot normally wield huge weapons at all without Monkey Grip. I can't find rules in d20modern for huge weapons, and huge weapon rules aren't spelled out in the nD20 doc, so I'm assuming it's defaulting back to D&D 3e which is where all these weapon size rules originate from, and that explicitly states that "If the weapon's size category is two or more steps larger than a character's own, the weapon is too large for the character to use." Additionally, the section of the nD20 doc which specifies the hands required for each size of weapon makes no reference to players being able to wield huge weapons at all. Meanwhile Monkey Grip does state "A Medium character with this feat is able to wield ... a Huge weapon with two-hands". It would appear that Monkey Grip is necessary in order for a medium creature to wield a huge-sized weapon, such as the Fullblade or a Greatsword for a large-sized creature. It would be strange to state in the "effect" section of the feat that individuals with the feat can wield huge weapons two-handed if that's something they could already do.


Oversized Weapons
Wait, where does it state that you can only use an Oversized weapon two-handed? It says that it's treated as one size category larger (which means if it was previously one-handed it's now two-handed), but that could be a jump from light to one-handed, such as your example of an oversized kunai. It later states that you only gain the benefits of the property if you can treat the weapon as two-handed. It makes no statement about having to actively two-hand it in order to gain benefits.

That said, if it DID require the weapon to be wielded two-handed regardless of its actual size, that would make Oversized Weapon Mastery make much more sense, leading me to believe this was a typo.

For the second line of the mastery feat: If the intent was to only have that effect of using one-handed weapons as light for the purposes of dual-wielding, it should say that more explicitly, as Light weapons have a variety of other effects, including being able to apply Weapon Finesse, being usable in a grapple, and so forth. As per your explanation though, the line regarding two-handed weapons makes more sense. I do feel this could probably be illustrated better, though.

I see your point regarding oversized two-weapon fighting.

I suppose I'm still a bit confused as to why a player would want to make use of the Oversized property in the first place. Compared to simply using a weapon made for a creature one size larger, the Oversized property costs substantially more (+4 price DC) while the larger weapon has no associated price increase (I can find no reference to increasing prices for non-medium PCs). Now, it seems that Oversized weapons suffer an additional -4 penalty which simply inappropriately large weapons do not, on top of the -2 for being inappropriately large (or possibly in-place of. This is unclear, as the -4 is called out as a non-proficiency penalty which the usual -2 is not, leading me to believe that they are separate penalties, but even if it is an "in-place of," it's still double the penalty). So Oversized weapons cost more and are significantly harder to use. If the weapon in question is already a reach weapon, these two options have identical effects. If it did not have reach, it gains reach, which I suppose could be its intended effect. +4 price, an extra -4 (or -2) on top of the normal -2 for being large size, and the increased unwieldiness of using a large sized weapons (two hands), seems like a lot to pay to increase your reach from 5ft to 10ft, especially when there's low-level techniques like Double-Size which can grant you the same reach increase.


Questions
Most of these are discussed above. My one point of continued confusion is the Oversized Weapon Proficiency feat. It states:
Quote:
You are able to wield oversized weapons proficiently so long as you have proficiency in the base weapon.

Now, nowhere does the document state that you are not proficient in inappropriately large weapons, it would seem to be that if you're proficient with the base, you're proficient with the overly-large. Further, this feat specifically references "oversized" which means a specific mechanic property, the oversized property, which would seem to indicate it affects only that trait. This seems to be corroborated by the fact that the description of the oversized property specifically calls out the -4 penalty and how it can be cancelled by taking the oversized weapon proficiency trait. Further, "wield ... proficiently" does not inherently mean wield without penalty. If the intent of this feat was to counteract all penalties for wielding inappropriately large weapon, it should specifically say something akin to "You no longer suffer from the cumulative -2 penalty for using weapons one or more size categories larger than appropriate for your size".

Thank you again for your response! I do think that these sections could use a bit of rewriting to clarify these distinctions. The use of the word "oversized" and "proficient" are both problematic, as they both have specific mechanics they refer to, so RAW the feat only is granting proficiency to weapons with the oversized weapon property, and as per the oversized weapon property, cancelling the weird -4 penalty that other overly-large weapons do not suffer from.
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SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


Joined: 10 May 2009
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the Oversized weapon modifier it states "An oversized weapon cannot normally be used one-handed, and weighs 4 times as much" as the last sentence in the description.

The prices for weapons sized for Large or larger creatures are under the rules for small and large character in the non-humanoid section IIRC, don't ask me why.

I don't really have anything more to say about the Oversized Weapons Prof feat. If you want it to only get rid of the -4 for using weapons with that quality but not the -2 for wielding inappropriately sized weapons, then do that if you want.
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Athildur
Sexually progressive Valkyrie


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 3192
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only suggest the redux (it's in the 'main file' part of the forums) in terms of more clarified rules. I've *attempted* to make the whole thing more easy to understand there, hopefully with some success.

In general, though, I just don't bother with any of this. Unless you're an extreme weapon-based taijutsu build, the feat investments are probably just not worth it. (But if you are, massive 2H weapons ftw!)
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