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Nature Transformations Mechanics and Theories

 
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RinVindor
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:34 am    Post subject: Nature Transformations Mechanics and Theories Reply with quote

So while I was browsing the Naruto Wiki looking for some info on a few things I stumbled upon a user who has been around for awhile who has his own section on some of the mechanics behind the series, his points are very well made, citing some very good points of history, mythology and other viewpoints.

The reason I'm making this post was to gauge the opinions of some of the fellow veteran players and fans of the series and how some of the nature's work. Namely this interests me because some of the Advanced Natures/Kekkei Genkai haven't been explained as to what they are in total combination such as Blaze, Explosion (ala Deidara and Gari), Scorching Heat, and Magnetism. The actual page on the matter points to a few things that I and other players and fans I've spoken to on the Discord channel for ND20.

The page here is what they've so far considered, http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Nature_transformation but after reading this person's theories and just ridiculous amount of good points and observations I am inclined to agree with them. Their post is here
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User:GoDai/GoDai_Seishitsu_Henka,_Combinations,_and_Theories

For example he points out that Explosion would be Fire and Lightning because:

Quote:

(Fire→Wind→Lightning) Explosion←→Wind
Hypothesis 1: The combination of Fire and Lightning seems to be Explosion. Lightning's characteristics would be applied to Fire, resulting in a sudden unstable combustion, possibly related to the vibratory nature of Lightning. Both Wind and Explosion are pushing forces, although Wind slices while Explosion would literally explode.

Hypothesis 2: If (and only if...) Sasuke's new element Blaze is a combination of Fire and Lightning, Naruto's Wind chakra will be the only equal counter to it. This was inspired when Yamato explains elemental relationships, about how Naruto's Wind cannot defeat Sasuke's Fire Release techniques, but can defeat his Chidori, and Naruto talked about how he was the only person that could be the one to oppose Sasuke. I especially believe that Sasuke's new element Blaze is somehow related to the two natures he was able to learn at such a young age, and I was mainly motivated by Yamato's lesson, where he showed Fire→Wind→Lightning, which means Naruto and Sasuke are, also in this way, opposites (Wind←→Blaze in this hypothesis).


So do you guys think that this and his other points hold merit? Why or why not? I'm honestly swayed enough after constantly rereading them that I'm tempted to do a variant ruling and setup certain jutsus as functioning off these points at least as far as Advanced Natures go.
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has been explained in canon that Blaze release is the combination of Lightning and Fire elements.

On a side note, Sasuke's Left Mangekyo allows him to use Amatarasu which is a naturally powerful Blaze Release technique, but it's his Right Mangekyo that actually provides him the capability to use and control Blaze release techniques. The power that his right eye gives him is what makes his use of Amatarasu much more precise and deadly than Itachi's.
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RinVindor
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not doubting you but can you provide a source on the Blaze being Fire + Lightning? I can't find anything atm.

I've seen speculation on the matter but nothing stating or sourcing it which the wikis are pretty on the ball about, especially for what I'd call older content at this point.

The author of said theories (Godai as he goes by), said this about Blaze Release in that post I shared above.

Quote:
Blaze Release (Clarification & Theories)
Sasuke Uchiha has used a technique known as Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi, which allows him to manipulate the black flames of Amaterasu. This ability is used through his right eye (whereas Amaterasu itself is cast with his left). There are three possibilities for this nature:

1. Sasuke was only boasting, comparing his ability to an actual nature. (Highly unlikely, as this makes the "~ton" suffix a "coincidence")

2. This nature is a combination of Fire and Yin, applying the form aspect of Yin to the flames of Amaterasu. This would make sense in the fact that Sasuke and Itachi both have control over Amaterasu(Fire) and Tsukuyomi(Yin) in one eye each, and therefore the casting of Amaterasu(Fire) and the form manipulation(Yin) may be what is being combined to form this nature. However, it is strange that only his right eye is needed for the actual technique. Also, the Uchiha have connections to the Fire and Yin natures, possibly meaning they can be combined in this way. (More likely, as the kanji for "Blaze" (炎) is two kanji for "Fire" (火), one on top of another, making the inclusion of another natural element unlikely. However, adding Yin or Yang to modify the flames while leaving them purely fire-based would make more sense.)

3. This nature is a combination of Fire and Lightning. Fire is modified to move and behave like Lightning, forming forks and Lightning Chakra Flow-like auras. It just happened so that Sasuke was using the flames of Amaterasu for this, although he can utilize other existing flames. (Viable, although a bit unlikey)
Also, the flames of Amaterasu are as hot as the flames of the sun, meaning they are composed of ionized plasma. The Lightning may be what is being used to change the shape of the charged particles, forming spikes, or forks.
Sasuke was able to learn the two natures pretty quickly, making it possible that he has affinities for both. Kakashi once said Sasuke was the same type as him, leading to his learning of the Chidori.

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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was also posted like five years ago, and while it's an interesting discussion, I'm not about to try and dive through material to find a source.
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RinVindor
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well every wiki and discussion I've seen at this points to Blaze being an enhanced nature, not a Fire + Lightning combination nature. Even the official Databooks made point to it being an advanced Katon.
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so if you already know that, then what is the point of the discussion?
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RinVindor
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point of the discussion was to discuss other less fleshed out natures such as Explosion and Magnet.
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NinjaCP
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the Naruto Wiki, Magnet is Earth + Wind. The Yondaime Kazekage is shown using Water, Earth, and Wind. Water + Wind is already known to produce Ice, and Water + Earth is Wood, so the argument goes that logically Magnet must be Earth + Wind.

I'd argue that it's more likely Earth + Lightning. Lightning is effectively the manipulation of electrons. When you combine that with the "form/structure" concept of Earth, it's not too big of a conceptual leap to manipulating the spin of electrons instead of their flow, and electron spin is what produces magnetism.

Just because the Yondaime Kazekage hasn't been shown to use Lightning Release doesn't mean that he can't.

Also, this fits with Toroi being able to use Magnet Release, since Lightning Release seems to be the most common form of elemental Ninjutsu among the Hidden Cloud shinobi.
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RinVindor
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I agree NinjaCP, the first time I looked at the flow chart of Natures I noticed they'd listed it as Earth and Wind and I was like "This makes no sense" an that's how I stumbled upon Godai's post in the Talk section, an his case for it being Earth and Lightning was much more compelling, especially when we have no actual confirmation that it is Earth and Wind.

His point was a much more educated and precise estimation of what it would be in my opinion.

I had the same thought on the matter of Lightning manipulating electrons and magnetism being derived from this. Though on the point of him using Lightning i know the databooks list him as not having Lightning Release so that one is still interesting to me as to how it precisely works.

I know Godai does mention this:

Quote:
Similar to the explosive chakra, the Third Kazekage's magnetic chakra was revealed to be a Nature Transformation. Most people guessed this when it was mentioned to be a kekkei genkai, and it was supported by the fact that the chakra is literally gaining a magnetic nature, relating it to the literal definition of Nature Transformation.


He also mentions Deidara as an example of having explosive chakra which later becomes utilized as Explosion Release and how Rasa has magnetic chakra which then becomes Magnetic Release, its in this case that I support Frankto's route of making it a kinjutsu technique for game flow over him just learning how to manipulate Lightning and Earth and getting Magnetic or having a KKG for Magnetic, the other caveat is that other ninja are shown to be proficient in Magnetic Release that are canon so its really interesting from that side due to the fact that we don't know much about them. I mean the Third Kazekage has Magnetic, Earth and Wind, so I can understand where they derive that idea that it is those two.

The main thing I keep coming back to is that there are -tons that function as just super versions or function outside of the others like Blaze being a more powerful Fire. It makes me kinda consider that maybe Magnetic, Steel or less likely Crystal are just that for Earth? Maybe its Steel for Earth in it's more powerful form and Lightning 's more powerful form is Magnetic? I still come back to that road block of the users not having Lightning and if its a KKG that is made by combining then it requires them.

Hahaha its a lot of theories that I find are fun to discuss on how they may go. I'm hoping for another databook that'll flesh things out even more so, maybe a glorious blessing will happen and Kishimoto will do an AMA Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to speculate on how Dark/Steel/Swift/Crystal come about other than postulating that they may be kekkei touta like Dust. Those are touched on so briefly that their inner workings are almost not worth considering IMO. Their composition is left very open-ended, and I suspect Kishimoto may have done that on purpose because he thought they would be cool and didn't want to be bothered with the details of making them internally consistent with the rest of the lore.

As far as Magnet is concerned, I really think Earth + Lightning is the only thing that makes sense. In terms of what would need to happen from a physics perspective, a Magnet Release user would first need to align all of the magnetic domains in a metallic object--in other words manipulating the physical properties of mineral matter--something that intuitively falls under the domain of Earth nature manipulation. Then, they would have to create a magnetic (or electric) field to accelerate the magnetized object--and creating electromagnetic fields is obviously something exclusive to Lightning nature manipulation.

As a physicist, I would be absolutely appalled if it didn't work that way.

As for Blast, I think a case could be made for Earth (for "compacting" the concussive power) and Wind (for "expelling" the concussive power). At any rate I would think that Earth is somehow involved based on Sasuke using Chidori Nagashi to disable Deidara's clay mines. When Gari is introduced in the manga it's explicitly stated that both he and Deidara were members of the Explosion Corps, so it's only logical to assume that Deidara's techniques are Blast Release Ninjutsu.

In the case of Blaze Release, I think there's a compelling argument for Fire + Lightning. In terms of physics, plasma is the "next step" after fire: matter becomes thermally excited to the point where all electrons are completely liberated from the nuclei, yielding a superheated cloud of highly-charged particles.

I'm not really won over by the "Blaze is just super-fire" theory.

For one, that would make it a complete oddball in the lore since no other "super-elements" have been shown or even alluded to. The only other instance of elemental ninjutsu without "sibling elements" is Dust Release, but that at least had some explicit detail provided in the manga as to how it was generated. Blaze as "super-fire" would necessitate the existence of "super-water", "super-lightning", and so on. Intuitive qualitative descriptions of these theoretical elemental natures just aren't forthcoming.

Two, "super-fire" is... well, kinda unimaginative. There isn't really any way of delving deeper into it like there is with other elements/combinations.

Lastly, since the only techniques we've seen that have been classified as Blaze Release have all been Amaterasu or variants thereof, it's entirely possible that Enton isn't a true "elemental nature" at all, but rather a poetic way of illustrating Amaterasu's overwhelming power and intensity relative to other Katon techniques.
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RinVindor
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for Explosion I had made the point that it didn't make sense as Earth and Lightning because of 1. Magnet Release making far more sense in that combo. 2. The fact it can be diffused with Lightning and that Fire and Lightning would be a much more suitable combustion while the clay itself is just clay used to store said Explosive chakra and the nature of lightning passing through the clay disrupting it made much more sense for me.

I agree on the front of Dark and Swift but I could see Steel being a super version of Earth and Typhoon being a super version of Wind honestly. All the standard 10 combinations aren't presented and so that wouldn't surprise me if there are others that are empowered versions like Blaze that exist. I mean Blaze even uses the emblem for Fire stacked ontop of itself which further supports the idea that it is a super powered Katon Release.

Though I had considered Plasma as an empowered version of Fire it could also fit for Lightning (though it honestly belongs more so in Fire)
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RinVindor
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean the other area we haven't touched upon in this discussion is how Yin and Yang related to combining with natures.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User:Omnibender/Elemental_recomposition_table#Three_elements

An interesting chart that breaks down the ones that are present known or partially known, as well as trying to pin down the ones that we don't know the compositions of such as Swift and Dark and even speculations on what the other combinations might be and it factors in possible Yang and Yin for their usage such as Blaze being Fire + Yin.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yin/Yang Release is another area that the manga doesn't really go into too deeply, other than to say it's responsible for things like Medical Ninjutsu and Shadow Ninjutsu.

In game terms, it can be pretty much whatever the GM wants it to be.
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RinVindor
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it is discussed and mentioned that both manipulate how chakra is utilized in general through each other and through elemental natures, Yang is use in the formation of physical materials while Yin is used to manipulate less tangible things (which is why its primary source for Genjutsu).
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black_fox9653
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to point out that discussing the Science of Magnet Release to determin its Elemental Combination is probably a little pointless, given that one of the only two materials we have seen is used with happens to be Gold, which Scientifically speaking doesnt make any sense at all Razz
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RinVindor
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean the fact he's using gold as one of the things he controls magnetically doesn't mean he's using magnetics to control pure gold. Gold with iron would easily qualify under this and seems pretty obvious that is what the Fourth Kazekage did when using gold.
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cathydeco06
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirShadow wrote:
It has been explained in canon that Blaze release is the combination of Lightning and Fire elements.

On a side note, Sasuke's Left Mangekyo allows him to use Amatarasu which is a naturally powerful Blaze Release technique Assurance dépendance, but it's his Right Mangekyo that actually provides him the capability to use and control Blaze release techniques. The power that his right eye gives him is what makes his use of Amatarasu much more precise and deadly than Itachi's.

Thank you very much for all these explanations because I just watched because I love this anime. There, I even know how to play naruto.
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