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The Mangekyou Effect
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PopeYodaI
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:59 pm    Post subject: The Mangekyou Effect Reply with quote

Maybe to late for the update, but perhaps an idea for the future: In the manga, it's basically said that every time Itachi uses the Mangekyou sharingan, his eyesight worsens continuously. Maybe instead of the temporary -1 penalty to pretty much everything the player has upon its use, the -1 is permanent, or they have to make a save to avoid it becoming permanent. Lets face it, these techniques can be raped like no other. Examples:

Tsukiyomi: Heroic Surge + Regular Action + Quicken Ninja Scout Class Feature = 9d6 Wisdom Damage, whose saves can reach to over 40 now with the Meta-Chakra feats.

Yominodoki: 60d8 Damage, no save.

Amaterasu is the weakest when it comes to the Mangekyou techniques, but 18d10 damage no save + being lit on fire no save would also suck.

Well, enough of the whine-fest. I like the techniques, but I just think that the penalties for using them is to small.
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SPAWN
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In one place you are wrong. You can't use Tsukuyomi twice on the same person.
Quote:
nor can a creature be affected twice by Tsukiyomi in a 24 hours period.

I think that the permanent -1 is too much because you need a feat to activate Your MS.
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Infinitus
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you used them 9 times, its like a certain death of yours in that enemy ambush that comes now and then, guessing you were level 20 before, its like being level 5-11 (except for the hit points).

The negative effect it has is kinda murdering, if not used in a proper situation...
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PopeYodaI
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wrong. With enough chakra, and given the rules that are out and coming it shouldn't be a problem, Yominodoki would be the only thing you need to take someone out. 60d8, no save. Beat that
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Keldon_Draconian
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two words:

Blindness Jutsu ^^

The user would not be able to use his/her sharingan (Which would have to be activated before using the Yominodoki, spending an attack action, so, "only"40d8 on the first round)

Other two words:

Multiple Bunshins.

Yominodoki affects only one target. You need to figure out the real one before using the technique.
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ekjohnson98
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keldon_Draconian wrote:
Two words:

Blindness Jutsu ^^

The user would not be able to use his/her sharingan (Which would have to be activated before using the Yominodoki, spending an attack action, so, "only"40d8 on the first round)

Other two words:

Multiple Bunshins.

Yominodoki affects only one target. You need to figure out the real one before using the technique.


i am a ECL 31 sharingan ninjutsu user and i have been trying to figure out how my opponents could take yominodoki (which i have epic tech. focus for) out of the picture. Unless i already have them under koro wada or another type of genjutsu their only chance is to genjutsu me using "sleep technique", absolute darkness" or another form of incapacitating jutsu. bunshins are not a problem because a simple concentration check with sharingan shows me the real one, due to the huge ammount of chakra difference in the real one. the only way is to take a 2 on one or greater situation and have a set plan for bringing the eyes out of the picture... i have had an NPC taijutsu master cut his eyes out (he had blind fight) so i could not use Tsukomoni on him... bunshins only work occasionally if they charge straight at the user and give the real person a hcance to hide or flee....

pretty much 1v1 sharingan wins... Laughing but a 3 on one or higher is easier for the opponents to take the sharingan out of the picture or at least have a fighting chance.
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PopeYodaI
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As battles go, 1 v 1, a sharingan user of equal level would more then likely turn your own genjutsu into worthless garbage, using that nice sharingan reflection technique, and bouncing them back at you when they make your will save. It comes down to who strikes first, or simply, who is more broken. Break Ryuujin Bakuha, and you can have a nice DC. 50 Reflex save or die. A sharingan user gets a nice +6 to Reflex, and permanent speed ranks make him kick more ass, so yeah, taking away his eyes is your main option. Consider Hidden Mist technique, or White Cloud technique. Tenken could be useful for sniping when neither of you can see anything. Sensing chakra and attacking with 5 ft. area effects like Kuuhazan and Mugen Kuuhazan further even the field. One on one, though, especially if they get the jump on you, a sharingan user will outright own you. The end
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Revan619
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: The Mangekyou Effect Reply with quote

PopeYodaI wrote:
Maybe to late for the update, but perhaps an idea for the future: In the manga, it's basically said that every time Itachi uses the Mangekyou sharingan, his eyesight worsens continuously. Maybe instead of the temporary -1 penalty to pretty much everything the player has upon its use, the -1 is permanent, or they have to make a save to avoid it becoming permanent. Lets face it, these techniques can be raped like no other. Examples:

Tsukiyomi: Heroic Surge + Regular Action + Quicken Ninja Scout Class Feature = 9d6 Wisdom Damage, whose saves can reach to over 40 now with the Meta-Chakra feats.

Yominodoki: 60d8 Damage, no save.

Amaterasu is the weakest when it comes to the Mangekyou techniques, but 18d10 damage no save + being lit on fire no save would also suck.

Well, enough of the whine-fest. I like the techniques, but I just think that the penalties for using them is to small.

I completely agree with this permanent -1 penalty purely because that is exactly how it works in the manga and the animation show, everytime itachi uses the mangekyou sharingan or one of its moves his eye sight becomes weaker, and this is clearly a stacking effect and not temporary effect simply answered when Kakashi says how bad has your eye sight become rather than did your eyes hurt a bit last time you used it?

Also I still dont understand why Amaterasu is the weakest in the book when its the strongest in the manga/show
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kp91
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but we don't know how bad it is. After 10 uses your character would practically be blind. For all we know, it's every 1000 uses that worsens his eyes.

Also as stated, unless completly going for an uber character, your not going to be using it a lot, it's not an incredibly powerful effect, especially with the penalties that go with it already. You would probably want to save it for the end of a mission as negative levels hurt a lot when the boss is probably already a good CR or 2 or 3 ahead of you.
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Insignia6
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is he really becoming blind? Or is his perception to attacks becoming worse? They've never actually confirmed what it does, it's only natural for people to jump on a bandwagon and assume something that hasn't been specifically confirmed.

It's a very touchy topic.
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Whitefire
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what i remember Kakashi said that Itachi commented on how bad his vision was getting so it could mean a number of things could get minuses, but i think the techniques is balanced as far as the minuses go.
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Romfire
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen Genius, Yominodoki doesnt go higher than 40d4. I dunno where you get your 60d8. So you're done.
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kp91
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Romfire wrote:
Listen Genius, Yominodoki doesnt go higher than 40d4. I dunno where you get your 60d8. So you're done.

"Heroic Surge + Regular Action + Quicken Ninja Scout Class Feature"
Works for Yomidoki for 120d4/round
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DotonLizard
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I lol'd.

I hope my Uchiha player doesn't see that. Shocked
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Whitefire
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Heroic Surge + Regular Action + Quicken Ninja Scout Class Feature"
Works for Yomidoki for 120d4/round


my god thats awesome, i wish i was in a different campaign as an uchiha now.
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Whitefire
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Heroic Surge + Regular Action + Quicken Ninja Scout Class Feature"
Works for Yomidoki for 120d4/round


my god thats awesome, i wish i was in a different campaign as an uchiha now.
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DotonLizard
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMFG HE DIVIDED BY ZERO THE UNIVERSE SPLIT!

OH SHI-
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Whitefire
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
OMFG HE DIVIDED BY ZERO THE UNIVERSE SPLIT!

OH SHI-


What, if you are talking about us, i mean me, no my computer back tracked like i didn't send the message so i sent it again just in case.
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DotonLizard
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh good.
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Romfire
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yominodoki Used 3 times in a row I agree it does that much damage I did it with my own character however you get a -2 for each attack. If you fight a guy same level as you its way to dangerous on a one on one fight unless you get him by surprise since then he cant kawarimi on you. onther than that it depends how u use it. In a fight with multiple ennemies it is useless to use Yominodoki 3 times especially if they are strong. plus, let's not forget that the DM can make characters especially against your Yominodoki with a high fortidude save. In which case you use a lot of chakra/hit points unless you cut the technnique in half with a meta chakra feat but Im not sure you can do it more than once per round.
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kp91
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Romfire wrote:
Yominodoki Used 3 times in a row I agree it does that much damage I did it with my own character however you get a -2 for each attack. If you fight a guy same level as you its way to dangerous on a one on one fight unless you get him by surprise since then he cant kawarimi on you. onther than that it depends how u use it. In a fight with multiple ennemies it is useless to use Yominodoki 3 times especially if they are strong. plus, let's not forget that the DM can make characters especially against your Yominodoki with a high fortidude save. In which case you use a lot of chakra/hit points unless you cut the technnique in half with a meta chakra feat but Im not sure you can do it more than once per round.

Well average of 2 die per d4, so passed save averages 1 damage.

40d4 averages 80 damage. 3 failed saves = (80+80+80) 240 damage. 3 Passing saves will do 120 damage (40+40+40).
So even strong Fortitude enemies are going to be severely weakened.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It'd be more like 300-150 on failed/succesful saves. But yeah, it pretty much loses the effectiveness if fighting against multiple enemies. But eh, you can't have it all Razz.
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Romfire
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the save is successful, the attack deals 2d6 points of damage
plus 1 per level (maximum 2d6+20). - If the guy succeeds the save this is the damage he will eat. So use Yominodoki 3 times in a row at level 20 and he succeeds lets say 2 of the saves since he is made to fight you and one on one - thats 52 damage total. The third one succeeds and eats80 more damage - 132 damage total. He is most probably not dead at level 21 since he has to be tougher than you for it to be a challange.

Tough Hero 10/Elite Shinobi Swordsman 10/Epic tough hero 1; CR 21; Medium Humanoid (Human); HD 10d10+40 plus 10d10+40 plus +4; hp 198; Mas 50; Init +2; Spd 30 ft; Defense 22 (+2 Dex, +10 Class), Touch 22, Flat-footed 20; BAB +17; Grap +21; Atk +21 melee (by weapon) or +19 ranged (by weapon); Full Atk +21/+16/+11/+6 melee (by weapon) or +19/+14/+9/+4 ranged (by weapon); FS 5 ft by 5 ft; Reach 5 ft; AL varies; SV Fort +17, Ref +9, Will +9; AP 21; CP 110; Rep +5; Wealth +18; Learn +21; Str 19, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15.
Occupation: Occupation (Bonus Class Skills:; Bonus Feat:).
Skills: (117 skill points).
Feats: (8 feats), Simple Weapons Proficiency.
Epic Feats: (1 feats).
Talent (Tough Hero): (Talent), Bonus Feat (5 feats), (Talent), (Talent), (Talent), (Talent).
Talent (Elite Shinobi Swordsman): Weapon Focus (), Quick Draw, Invisible Strike, Bonus Feat (3 feats), Sneak Attack (+2d6), Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Power of the Elite, Improved Critical, Greater Weapon Specialization.
Techniques Known: Control(+)-; Genjutsu(+)-; Ninjutsu(+)-; Taijutsu(+)-.
Equipment: various personal gear.

He has Great Toughness and Epic Toughness. So another +6 in fortitude. His fortitude is now +23.

The save of Yominodoki if you have +4 in Intel is 29 + Technique focus =31 At level 20. - At next level you can make it to 35 but hey your enemy will be higher too.

With an action point the chances that he has the save are extremly high.
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kp91
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I didn't look it up, I assumed it was like 90% of other ninjutsu. Ya, the saved damage sucks, horribly.
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Atsuhiro Uchiha
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someboy above tated how often will you use these techniques. I have all three and MS of course and have never used them once. I have technqiues I use instead. They're more effective and there's never that one enemy that's that deadly, to where I need to use the MS techniques. To me the perm's aren't cool because I never use the attacks as it is. I'd never sue them with the perm's.
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ekjohnson98
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atsuhiro Uchiha wrote:
As someboy above tated how often will you use these techniques. I have all three and MS of course and have never used them once. I have technqiues I use instead. They're more effective and there's never that one enemy that's that deadly, to where I need to use the MS techniques. To me the perm's aren't cool because I never use the attacks as it is. I'd never sue them with the perm's.


in your description below your post it says that you are a lvl 14 MS user... how is that possible?
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kp91
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ekjohnson98 wrote:
Atsuhiro Uchiha wrote:
As someboy above tated how often will you use these techniques. I have all three and MS of course and have never used them once. I have technqiues I use instead. They're more effective and there's never that one enemy that's that deadly, to where I need to use the MS techniques. To me the perm's aren't cool because I never use the attacks as it is. I'd never sue them with the perm's.


in your description below your post it says that you are a lvl 14 MS user... how is that possible?

Prerequisites:
Advanced Bloodline (Uchiha Clan Sharingan), Ichiryuu Sharingan, Heroic character level 14

The Gm may have given it as a bonus feat.
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Romfire
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mangekyou Sharingan
As a true heir of the Uchiha Clan, you are able to develop the ultimate and most powerful
sort of Sharingan.
Prerequisite: Advanced Bloodline (Uchiha Clan Sharingan), Ichiryuu Sharingan, Heroic
character level 15
Benefit: Selecting this feat enables you to learn the ninjutsu Amaterasu and Yominodoki
and the genjutsu Tsukuyomi, in addition to developing this special Sharingan (As the
specifics of the Mangekyou Sharingan are still unclear, it will not be included for the
moment).
Special: The GM may require the character to accomplish some deeds in order to be able
to select this feat (such as the assassination of a beloved one, for example).

Says level 15 in my copy of 828 pages.
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kp91
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still haven't downloaded that one as there aren't bookmarks.
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DotonLizard
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this guy who's lvl 14 with mangekyo is using the new bloodline rules.


Besides, jymantek made a bookmarked version of the most recent file.
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