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IHALA
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 Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject: Belief leads to understanding, or vice versa? |
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For I do not seek to understand that I may believe, but I believe in order to understand. For this I believe - that unless I believe, I should not understand. - Anselm of Canterbury
What are your interpretations of this?
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Jensik
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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I believe... that guy is thinking way too hard about absolutely nothing. I say hang the sense of it and just be happy. 
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IHALA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe so, but I still want to know what other people think about it. It doesn't have to be detailed and deeply thought out, but just your gut interpretation of it.
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I am the way into the City of Woe.
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I am the way into Eternal Sorrow.
Sacred justice moved my Architect.
I am raised here by divine Omnipotence
Primordial Love and ultimate Intellect.
Only those whose elements time cannot wear
Were made before Me, and beyond time I stand.
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Jensik
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well that's how I interpret it. The guy is a kook. The secret to my happy life. Believe what you want to believe in, and understand only what you need to.
"He who increases knowledge, increases sorrow."
The third part of the secret to my happy life is much less profound. Ignore something long enough and it will either go away or file a lawsuit. So far I've only talked to one lawyer so it works most of the time.
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IHALA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Ha. Perhaps I should reveal my motive for posting this. While I personally don't find this quote of any particular interest, it is for a philosophy paper, and I need the interpretations of other people for it. I think there are some pretty intelligent people on this board, so I thought it might be worth posting to get a couple responses.
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I am the way into Eternal Sorrow.
Sacred justice moved my Architect.
I am raised here by divine Omnipotence
Primordial Love and ultimate Intellect.
Only those whose elements time cannot wear
Were made before Me, and beyond time I stand.
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Jensik
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| IHALA wrote: | | Ha. Perhaps I should reveal my motive for posting this. While I personally don't find this quote of any particular interest, it is for a philosophy paper, and I need the interpretations of other people for it. I think there are some pretty intelligent people on this board, so I thought it might be worth posting to get a couple responses. |
*laughs hysterically* Oh thanks I needed that.
All jokes aside, now that I know what its for I'm going to take it a little more seriously. (Note: I still think the guy is a bit off his rocker)
The statement is contradictory. Belief is something that you know in your heart. You don't know why or how or even care. You just know. True understanding means that you know how something exists because you've studied it, lived and experienced with it, and through that experience can comprehend every aspect of the subject. Understanding something takes away your belief, and replaces it with different sort of certainty.
Like you for instance. I believe you exist. You cannot prove with words that you do, it's impossible. Without ever meeting you, and physically confirming it, I cannot be sure... but I believe.
That unfortunately brings up yet another philosophical question: Do you exist because we believe you exist? Or do we believe you exist because your existence allows it? Of course that's going off topic so we'll avoid that one for now.
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Cujo
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| He holds his own beliefs, and doesn't hunt for any proof as to why he holds his own beliefs. However, to understand other's beliefs something else he must believe them in order to understand, aka they must have proof of their beliefs in order to believe them as well. So in the end, if he already has a reason to believe in something he requires no further reason to believe in it, but if he is meant to believe in something new, he needs to proof as to why he should believe it. |
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IHALA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He holds his own beliefs, and doesn't hunt for any proof as to why he holds his own beliefs. However, to understand other's beliefs something else he must believe them in order to understand, aka they must have proof of their beliefs in order to believe them as well. So in the end, if he already has a reason to believe in something he requires no further reason to believe in it, but if he is meant to believe in something new, he needs to proof as to why he should believe it. |
Interesting. What if I was to say that the same man also said "I hold it to be a failure in duty if after we have become steadfast in our faith we do not strive to understand what we believe"?
| Quote: | | The statement is contradictory. Belief is something that you know in your heart. You don't know why or how or even care. You just know. |
Are you saying someone cannot believe in god and understand their beliefs as well?
| Quote: |
That unfortunately brings up yet another philosophical question: Do you exist because we believe you exist? Or do we believe you exist because your existence allows it? Of course that's going off topic so we'll avoid that one for now. |
Forget off topic, if something comes up as a result of the topic, it's on-topic enough.
If I do exist, then it would seem to make sense that you could believe in my existence. Also, if everyone believes in my existence, then for all intents and purposes I exist, for they are all equally deluded to my existence.
Descartes said "I question my existence, therefore I am." Perhaps I do exist, but you and everyone else do not. You only think you exist because you, as figments of my imagination, have fabricated memories suitable to the personalities I have given you (unwittingly), and act according to the personality i have given you. If I have made you question your existence, does that make you exist, or do you remain part of my imagination?
_________________
I am the way into the City of Woe.
I am the way to a Forsaken People.
I am the way into Eternal Sorrow.
Sacred justice moved my Architect.
I am raised here by divine Omnipotence
Primordial Love and ultimate Intellect.
Only those whose elements time cannot wear
Were made before Me, and beyond time I stand.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here! |
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Jensik
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Are you saying someone cannot believe in god and understand their beliefs as well? |
I'm saying that, based on people I've met and spoken with, the type of people who believe don't bother trying to understand why. They have their faith and that's all they need. Having that faith in a power greater than themselves, and sharing that belief with other like minded people gives them a purpose. It doesn't matter what they have faith in, as long as they have faith. (Yes I know that's a line from a movie, but that doesn't make it any less true)
The other type is the type that think they have faith, but try and find reasoning for it. They eventually come to an understanding of what it was they were doing and gradually lose faith altogether. I am of the latter. When you take a few steps backward, and look at everything as a whole... 'believing' is just a manifestation to fill a hole, a void, in yourself. Many choose faith to fill this void because it's easy, or convincing, or popular, how they were raised, or any number of different reasons. I found something else to fill that void, and I'm just as content with my life than the most devout of any religion.
| Quote: | Forget off topic, if something comes up as a result of the topic, it's on-topic enough.
If I do exist, then it would seem to make sense that you could believe in my existence. Also, if everyone believes in my existence, then for all intents and purposes I exist, for they are all equally deluded to my existence.
Descartes said "I question my existence, therefore I am." Perhaps I do exist, but you and everyone else do not. You only think you exist because you, as figments of my imagination, have fabricated memories suitable to the personalities I have given you (unwittingly), and act according to the personality i have given you. If I have made you question your existence, does that make you exist, or do you remain part of my imagination? |
Ok, now you're just hurting my head. I'm going to go back to my original thought on this one. (Indifference, ftw!)
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Infinitus
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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such a damn beliefer...
it would be quite easier to say "If I do not understand - I belief what I want" but it seems that he is dead. fine... no work for me.
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Athildur
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:57 am Post subject: Re: Belief leads to understanding, or vice versa? |
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| IHALA wrote: | | For I do not seek to understand that I may believe, but I believe in order to understand. For this I believe - that unless I believe, I should not understand. - Anselm of Canterbury |
I have to say I do not agree with our ol' chap Anselm.
I believe that the two are somewhat unrelated.
In the following manner:
If you believe, you do not necessarily understand. The belief you have cannot lead to understanding, because understanding comes from 'research' and not simply from believing something is true. In fact, mostly, belief that something is true is what keeps a lot of people from trying to understand it. They believe it works, so why bother?
Especially in some cases, like faith, which is also belief, belief does not lead to true understanding. Belief is the very basics upon which a faith is built, and true understanding is likely to never come, unless a lucky soul has the chance of appearing before God or some other divine authority. (Not that I am saying there is a God or not, but we're being hypothetical here).
Now, the other way around can be interpreted in two different manners.
Belief has two different meanings. One meaning is the confidence and certainty that something works. The other meaning is more or less the same, but is based on a level of uncertainty, rather than absolute certainty. (This is the difference in, say, believing in a friend and believing in a divine being)
So now wer're talking if understanding leads to belief.
For the first meaning of the word, it most certainly does. Understanding how something works, why it works, or whatever way makes sure it works will most surely make a person belief with the utmost certainty in that particular machine, item, person, group of people, event or whatnot. It is a logical conclusion, so to speak.
For the other meaning, it is the other way around. Belief, in the sense of a mystical feeling that arises when you really 'believe' in something that is uncertain, is, for some people, a vital part of their lives, a driving force, so to speak. Understanding of this phenomenon, however, may lead to either the crumbling of that belief (it is found out that what they believed in is not at all what they thought it was, and they quickly step away from it, their beliefs shattered), or the affirmation of belief (what they have believed in all these years, they finally understand it, and it is all true, an epiphany, so to speak!), which would switch their belief from this meaning to the other, so effectively understanding takes the belief that is there and transforms it.
So, technically, one does not lead to the other. They may merely take what is already there and tilt it over, to another level. I do not believe one will lead to the other, some rare cases left out, perhaps.
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IntOblivion
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:05 am Post subject: |
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I hope I don't run into some sort of conversation that's gone pretty far now, so I'll speak for me, not for the swedes in particular.
One do not seek to understand what one does not believe. If I do not believe in the existance of, say, God, I do not seek to understand God, since that, in my plane, would not only be foolish, but also a waste of time. If I, however, believe in God, then I seek to understand him and his words, for such is the nature of belief.
On cannot understand without belief, for belief fuels the search for knowledge, and what I do not believe, I will never understand. Thus, I will never understand God, for I do not believe in his existance, nor will I attempt to understand the nature of that I do not believe.
Belief is understanding, understanding is belief. That is one of the rules of existance, I'd say. One cannot belief without understanding. One cannot understand without belief in the purpose.
This is what I make out of it.
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IHALA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with much of what you said IntOblivion, that belief does indeed provide the drive to understand your belief. However I do not think belief is understanding, understanding is belief. I think Athildur is also correct that one can understand without believing, and believe without understanding.
An example from my own life about a week ago:
The engineer understands how dowsing/witching/divining rods are supposed to work, but does not believe in them.
The field man uses the rods and believes in them, but does not understand how they work.
My uncle and myself understand how they work and also believe they work.
| Quote: |
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Are you saying someone cannot believe in god and understand their beliefs as well?
I'm saying that, based on people I've met and spoken with, the type of people who believe don't bother trying to understand why. They have their faith and that's all they need. Having that faith in a power greater than themselves, and sharing that belief with other like minded people gives them a purpose. It doesn't matter what they have faith in, as long as they have faith. (Yes I know that's a line from a movie, but that doesn't make it any less true)
The other type is the type that think they have faith, but try and find reasoning for it. They eventually come to an understanding of what it was they were doing and gradually lose faith altogether. I am of the latter. When you take a few steps backward, and look at everything as a whole... 'believing' is just a manifestation to fill a hole, a void, in yourself. Many choose faith to fill this void because it's easy, or convincing, or popular, how they were raised, or any number of different reasons. I found something else to fill that void, and I'm just as content with my life than the most devout of any religion. |
Just because your experience with trying to understand faith took your belief, does not mean it has to be that way for all people. I will agree with you on why most people choose to have faith though.
PS thanks to everyone who posted something.
_________________
I am the way into the City of Woe.
I am the way to a Forsaken People.
I am the way into Eternal Sorrow.
Sacred justice moved my Architect.
I am raised here by divine Omnipotence
Primordial Love and ultimate Intellect.
Only those whose elements time cannot wear
Were made before Me, and beyond time I stand.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here! |
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IntOblivion
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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It might be true that a dowsing/whatever understands how a divine rod's supposed to work, but does that necessarily mean that he understands the nature, or the divine rod itself? Does the understanding about an object/image/something else necessarily make you understand the thing itself?
I say it does not. Only with belief can one understand the true nature of an object/whatever, but with belief, the perspective on the thing may be clouded, so that one does not understand. It is a difficult balance, but if you manage to keep on track, then you might have both belief and understanding.
However, it may be as you speak, IHALA, and since I am young, my perspective is clouded by my lack of knowledge. However, an older persons perspective would be clouded BECAUSE of his knowledge.
I hope you get well with your report, or what it was(thanks for agreeing with me, btw)! 
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IHALA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | However, it may be as you speak, IHALA, and since I am young, my perspective is clouded by my lack of knowledge. However, an older persons perspective would be clouded BECAUSE of his knowledge. |
Ha! You are aware of your own ignorance, that is good. Wisdom is being aware of the depth of your own ignorance. That first sentence is almost straight out of a Socratic dialogue, whether you intended it to be or not. And I am young as well.
_________________
I am the way into the City of Woe.
I am the way to a Forsaken People.
I am the way into Eternal Sorrow.
Sacred justice moved my Architect.
I am raised here by divine Omnipotence
Primordial Love and ultimate Intellect.
Only those whose elements time cannot wear
Were made before Me, and beyond time I stand.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here! |
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IntOblivion
Grandmaster
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Well, then that makes us two then.
And who would know that my wisdom was so high? Perhaps I'm a divine bard! 
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Infinitus
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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'[...]I believe in order to understand[...]'
It is in general an appeal to belief, even sometimes things you do not understand... like god, but if god exists, that god has endowed us with reason, intellect and sense and we should forgo it, when we do not understand? Holy crap, I am happy that yet another philosopher is dead.
And... he tries to say, that you won't understand if you don't belief... this is so annoying. but not as half as much as charlie the unicorn.
edit: he just wants to try to get people to belief and to justify their belief by reason, that is all.
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IntOblivion
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Who wants to tell who what?
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IHALA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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edit: he just wants to try to get people to belief and to justify their belief by reason, that is all. |
True, he was an Archbishop, his words are propaganda.
| Quote: | | but if god exists, that god has endowed us with reason, intellect and sense |
What do you base this on? Why does a god have to bestow us with intellect? Can god exist, but not be our creator?
_________________
I am the way into the City of Woe.
I am the way to a Forsaken People.
I am the way into Eternal Sorrow.
Sacred justice moved my Architect.
I am raised here by divine Omnipotence
Primordial Love and ultimate Intellect.
Only those whose elements time cannot wear
Were made before Me, and beyond time I stand.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here! |
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IntOblivion
Grandmaster
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't that the core of the Deism(or whatever it's called in english). A god that created the world, but left it for itself?
Also, I will not plunge further into that discussion about god, as I do not believe in his existence. I will, however follow the thread and answer for things not deeply plunging into christianity.
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IHALA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Isn't that the core of the Deism(or whatever it's called in english). A god that created the world, but left it for itself? |
No, the opposite really. I am saying that god does interfere with the world, but did not create it. I don't necessarily believe it, but I did propose it to be possible.
| Quote: | | Also, I will not plunge further into that discussion about god, as I do not believe in his existence. I will, however follow the thread and answer for things not deeply plunging into christianity. |
God here, as most people have been using it, is as a generic deity that can be substituted as gods, goddess, goddesses, God, Goddess, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Most Holy Trinity of the Three Bisexual Goddesses....whatever. Christianity itself isn't being discusses, only that the quotes origin is Christian ties the thread to a specific religion.
_________________
I am the way into the City of Woe.
I am the way to a Forsaken People.
I am the way into Eternal Sorrow.
Sacred justice moved my Architect.
I am raised here by divine Omnipotence
Primordial Love and ultimate Intellect.
Only those whose elements time cannot wear
Were made before Me, and beyond time I stand.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here! |
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Infinitus
Holiday Ninja
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| IHALA wrote: | | What do you base this on? |
This is based upon me, taking a peek into the churches point of view... see genesis...
| IHALA wrote: | | Why does a god have to bestow us with intellect? |
He does not have to, but if he exists and has created us like brother church says, then he had bestowed us with intellect, at least to a certain degree... you might deny that you or anyone has intellect, this is your option
edit: I for myself can proof that I have intellect and sense and reason
| IHALA wrote: | | Can god exist, but not be our creator? |
If god exists, than of course he could exist without being our creator, but i argued from the churchs point of view, because belief things always are entwined with the church, most commonly. So that argument is slightly off... it is neither on HIS belief side, nor on my do not belief side, arguing grey leads to another topic, who or what is god, if he exists.
I took only his narrow dogmatic view and argued with it against simple-minded belief.
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IHALA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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I am assuming a generic god, Not Yahweh or any other "actual" deity.
| Quote: | | because belief things always are entwined with the church, most commonly. |
[/nitpick]
However you are correct if it is based on Genesis, I had a class that went into detail on theology of Genesis.... Fun time that was.... 
_________________
I am the way into the City of Woe.
I am the way to a Forsaken People.
I am the way into Eternal Sorrow.
Sacred justice moved my Architect.
I am raised here by divine Omnipotence
Primordial Love and ultimate Intellect.
Only those whose elements time cannot wear
Were made before Me, and beyond time I stand.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here! |
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Infinitus
Holiday Ninja
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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read carefully.
I reasoned why I took the churches point of view and not that of any other religion, and it seems I was right, as far as you told us, he was an archbishop. So everythin' is alright... but
So you do assume a generic god? What is a generic god, define.
start nitpicking at yourself
(actually this makes fun... please go on (don't care if i might sound sarcastic do not take it personal.))
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IHALA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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First rule of philosophy: Define Your Terms. Doh!
Generic deity being any number of divine beings which fit the basic mold that a deity is expected to be (in western thought, don't need thousands of Native American and Japanese -esque spirits). The generic deity is not any "real" deity (Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, Woden/Odin), but may be (remarkably) similar to one for purpose of argument, and said deity may change as discussion continues to suit the needs.
You decided that the deity endowed us with intellect. Thats fine, I only wanted to know why this was so, and what would be different if it was not so.
| Quote: | | (actually this makes fun... please go on (don't care if i might sound sarcastic do not take it personal.)) |
Yes, it is interesting, and part of discussion is not taking offense. It's a stupid person who cannot entertain an idea without accepting it and without taking offense to it.
_________________
I am the way into the City of Woe.
I am the way to a Forsaken People.
I am the way into Eternal Sorrow.
Sacred justice moved my Architect.
I am raised here by divine Omnipotence
Primordial Love and ultimate Intellect.
Only those whose elements time cannot wear
Were made before Me, and beyond time I stand.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here! |
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Cujo
Chuunin
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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You know whats fun? When you mention Yahweh around catholic people and they suddenly think you're a muslim. I got shunned so fast I never even had a chance to explain anything...
On topic however, clearly it's assumed the quote is taken from a stance on religion. However, could it be inferred in a different sense? |
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IHALA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You know whats fun? When you mention Yahweh around catholic people and they suddenly think you're a muslim. I got shunned so fast I never even had a chance to explain anything... |
I wonder if any of them ever realized hat it's Hebrew?
| Quote: | | On topic however, clearly it's assumed the quote is taken from a stance on religion. However, could it be inferred in a different sense? |
Based on what Anselm was speaking of when he said this, it can be safely assumed it was meant in reference to religion. Can we apply it to other beliefs? Yes, I think so.
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I am the way into the City of Woe.
I am the way to a Forsaken People.
I am the way into Eternal Sorrow.
Sacred justice moved my Architect.
I am raised here by divine Omnipotence
Primordial Love and ultimate Intellect.
Only those whose elements time cannot wear
Were made before Me, and beyond time I stand.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here! |
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Infinitus
Holiday Ninja
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 1976
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| IHALA wrote: | | Based on what Anselm was speaking of when he said this, it can be safely assumed it was meant in reference to religion. Can we apply it to other beliefs? Yes, I think so. |
do not generalize. most commonly it would be possible. but there are certain religions who do not fit into this one.
| IHALA wrote: | | You decided that the deity endowed us with intellect. Thats fine, I only wanted to know why this was so, and what would be different if it was not so. |
It is more a realization, if the christian deity exists, it endowed us with intellect. (Speaking of god without any definite article always refers to the christian deity.)
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Cujo
Chuunin
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 99
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| IHALA wrote: | | Quote: | | You know whats fun? When you mention Yahweh around catholic people and they suddenly think you're a muslim. I got shunned so fast I never even had a chance to explain anything... |
I wonder if any of them ever realized hat it's Hebrew? |
Not a one, I was told to get my Allah-worshiping ass away from them. I was talking with a friend at the time, and somehow got into a jokish discussion on deities, everything from Yahweh to d&d versions when a group of old people overheard and attacked.
As for, "I think therefore I am," I love to entertain the concept of singular existence, that I may be real but everything else is just an illusion of the mind. However, the inverse is also fun to argue, that there is one "real" person in all the world and the rest of us are just products of their imagination. Which, if such is true, means that by "I think therefore I am" you must be that one person, unless that person wishes everyone to think as such. |
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IntOblivion
Grandmaster
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 1412
Location: The other side... Of the sea.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Allah-worshipping ass? For talking about Yahweh? Holy smokes! <tsk><tsk>
Well, that is a pretty interesting thought... makes you think about Trueman show, doesn't it?
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