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The Shade class

 
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Harmless Penguin
Chuunin


Joined: 02 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:49 am    Post subject: The Shade class Reply with quote

Two questions regarding the Shade that I'd like other's opinions on:
From looking at the classes, is the Ninja Scout in fact the best class to support the Shade Class, especially into Epic levels?

And does anyone else think that the Death Attack ability seems a bit odd? I mean it's based off intelligence, a stat primarily asociated with ninjutsu, rather than dex but the shade is described as the class that can kill without the need for techniques and thus implying better suited for characters with low str, int, and cha. Also, does anyone else find the save DC rather low for when it can be gotten, especially considering it requires studying an unsuspecting enemy for three rounds and doesn't scale beyond 5 levels? I would either like to see the effect weakened and have a better scaling save DC (i.e. 10+number of sneak attack die + Int and double Sneak Attack damage or paralyzing on a success) or, alternatively, have some other secondary effect that works even if the DC is made besides simply the Sneak Attack going off. Such as it leaves the target Sickened for 3 rounds even if they succeeded the save, not a major effect, but at least useful.


Last edited by Harmless Penguin on Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jmantyk
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason, I'm guessing, that it is based off of int is thats what the Assassin from the dmg is. Since it does say "studies his victim for 3 rounds" Intelligence doesn't seem out of place.

While it's DC does seem low compared when compared to the 10 level assassin, the Sure Kill abillity makes up for it. A seconday minor effect going off on a failed save does sound like an intresting idea.
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Harmless Penguin
Chuunin


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm, good point, I suppose I'm just a bit disappointed with the ability's progression into epic levels compared with other core class abilities that remain useful throughout level progression but int doesn't seem entirely out of place when you put it like that. I'll modify my suggestion but if others also think it's fine as it is then I won't push the subject.
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jmantyk
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Their should be some feats to increase your DC, or ask your dm if you could apply a feat like pick the poison to it.

(I may have the name slightly off, but it was a Monk feat that allowed you to choose what kinda a save an enemy made to resist stunning fist (Fort or Will))

Also if you can't raise the DC, use poisons and other things to lower their save.
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kp91
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't a one hit kill move enough. And yes, it's Int because it involves creating a masterful strategy to make one kunai kill them. You
1. Should have already poisoned them, as shade's are assasins.
2. If it was a DC 30 because it's your best score, the class would be insanely broken.
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Harmless Penguin
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that a 5% chance no matter what of killing someone is pretty powerful, which is why in my suggestion I mentioned that if the DC were made to scale, the effect would be drastically reduced; i.e. double sneak attack dmg instead of instant kill. Also, this is really meant for the ability to scale into Epic levels where in instant kill abilities aren't THAT rare. I also made the alternative suggesiton of giving it a weak secondary effect as well. And even with my suggestion it would take someone with 20 int and a 15d6 Sneak Attack (basically dedicating a character build to Sneak Attack) to get it up to a DC: 30 to deal an extra 15d6 dmg that can be used once per encounter after studying an unsuspecting opponent for 3 rounds ahead of time, not exactly Epic but at least it scales into it. I also like this better simply because I'm NOT a fan of instant kill abilities or techniques =/. Hell, I even considered suggesting three times the sneak attack damage on a success, but figured that would introduce the possibility of forcing MAS saves too early in progression and then we'd be back to an instant kill attack not to mention that might get a bit nutty once you start hitting Epic levels. Also, poisoning is not a class ability, anybody can poison their weapon. Not to mention the only way to get a poison with a higher DC save than the current Death Attack is by getting someone else to or crafting it yourself thus even the expert poisoner class ability is useless in this situation as the feat that allows you to make normal poisons not even epic ones also covers this as well.

Edit: Oh right and if anything is 'improved' about the Death Attack, I would recommend that it be moved to level 3 of Shade and one of the Sneak Attacks moved to level 1.
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jmantyk
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While everyone can put poison on a weapon, a shade never will accidently poison himself ebcause of poison expert ability
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Harmless Penguin
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, the only way to get a poison with a higher DC than the current Death Attack DC is by making an Epic Poison yourself and anyone with the Craft Poisons, much less Craft Epic Poisons, feat will never accidentally poison themselves either.
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jmantyk
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Making and applying are two different things...but according to the craft poison feat, you can't poison yourself once you get it. That does make the Sade's ability kinda weaker.
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Mr. Derp
Genin


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I the only person that thinks that 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage every level is just wrong? Shouldn't it only ever be every other level, even though they are ninjas? Instead of all those Sneak Attack bonuses (There should be three at the most XD), I suggest adding something like Increasing Poison DCs, faster/better Chakra sensing/repression, bonuses to hide/move silently.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not think this is wrong.

1 - It starts at 2nd Shade level.
2 - You need to be at least level 6 to have at least 1 Shade level.
3 - That means the sneak attack progression, by character level, is as follows (maximized): Level 7 - 1d6, Level 8 - 2d6, Level 9 -3d6, Level 10 - 4d6.

4d6 sneak attack damage on level 10 is subpar to what a rogue would normally be getting. This is also the ONLY class that grants such a high progression, and the class has only five levels. Even if a user specializes in getting sneak attack damage, the highest any character could get at level 20 is:

Base (3 levels) + 4d6 (Shade) (Shade 5) + 2d6 (Genjutsu Adept with increased Sneak Attack talent) (GA 5) + 1d6 (Nin Scout) (NS 2) + 1d6 (Medical Specialist 3/ESS 4/Nin Police 4/ NS +4/Shuriken Expert 3/Taijutsu Master 5).

This makes for 8d6 at level 20. At max. And to be honest, you'd have made a mess of your character unless you're really expert at somehow fitting it all together.

I could see Fast 3 + Ninja Scout 6 + Shade 5 + Genjutsu Adept 5 working.
Maybe Nin Scout 2-3 and Shuriken Expert 3-4. The rest seems to be dividing the character so much, it couldn't be as effective. (Well, maybe it could, but I'm just thinking out loud, without too much thought going into it Razz)
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kp91
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athildur wrote:

This makes for 8d6 at level 20. At max. And to be honest, you'd have made a mess of your character unless you're really expert at somehow fitting it all together.

I could see Fast 3 + Ninja Scout 6 + Shade 5 + Genjutsu Adept 5 working.
Maybe Nin Scout 2-3 and Shuriken Expert 3-4. The rest seems to be dividing the character so much, it couldn't be as effective. (Well, maybe it could, but I'm just thinking out loud, without too much thought going into it Razz)

Doesn't seem to be that bad, if you can, grab a level in Medical Expert just to lose the -8 penalty, and grab a few Medical Techniques. They can never hurt (XD, I just realized that was a very unintended pun). Shade, Scout, and Genjutsu all go for being unseen and attacking, so they work together.
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