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Vanakoji Genin
Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 46 Location: Canada
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: Opinions on a good puppeteer/the puppeteer build you use. |
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I was just wondering what people find/like to use for good for a puppeteer build, such as feats, puppeteer skills etc. (smart 3/puppeteer 10)
I currently was thinking up a new puppeteer build with the following (puppeteer with as much ninjutsu techs as possible:
Skills (mentored): (gain move silently and chakra control and put them up in ranks for the first 3 levels since they will count as class skills until i level up in a puppeteer while taking a +1 in ninjutsu in place of another class skill)
Feats:
Level 1: Genius nin, (undecided), Ninjutsu adept (mentored).
Level 2(smart): Craft Puppets
Level 3: (undecided)
Level 6: Puppet Multiattack
Level 7(puppeteer): Multipuppet fighting
rest I'm not sure on
(i was thinking of taking feats like advance seal pro. , gift of summoning, craft poisons, scribe chakra symbols. for the open slots, maybe even advanced study so i could learn lvl 1,2 and 3 techs at level 1)
Talents: Ninjutsu, Improved Ninjutsu
Puppeteer skills:
1st:Puppet Mastery
2nd:(level 7 bonus feat)
3rd:Puppet defense
4th:Energize puppet (maybe puppet flight instead)
5th:Master Puppeteer
I was just wondering what you guys would suggest for feats, skills, etc.
Also, what kind of puppet builds do you guys use? _________________ And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning. |
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kp91 PM Frankto for a Special Title
Joined: 09 Aug 2006 Posts: 3076
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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If you are human (not mutated or Fire Human or Wind Human etc), you are missing a feat at first level. Which allows you take to Advanced Study, although note, it only gives ONE technique 2 ranks higher, not "techs".
Also, Grand Master is really good for a puppeteer, as it makes it a lot easier to Master Kugutsu no Jutsu to the 3rd step by level 3. |
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Vanakoji Genin
Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 46 Location: Canada
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, i wasn't sure on advanced study but i can cross that off the list then... How am i missing a feat? the two listed are the 2 i have chosen with the 3rd still being decided (2 human +1 occupation, i was thinking craft poisons for a puppeteer) _________________ And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning. |
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kp91 PM Frankto for a Special Title
Joined: 09 Aug 2006 Posts: 3076
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Vanakoji wrote: | Ok, i wasn't sure on advanced study but i can cross that off the list then... How am i missing a feat? the two listed are the 2 i have chosen with the 3rd still being decided (2 human +1 occupation, i was thinking craft poisons for a puppeteer) |
Ah, well two were listed, and one said mentored after it, so I thought you forgot the second human one. I thought the undecided was undecided of what to use Genius Nin with (tai, gen, ninjutsu, or chakra control) |
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Vanakoji Genin
Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 46 Location: Canada
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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The reason i thought of advanced study that way is because i am fairly sure that genius nin allows you to learn any tech 1 level higher and the wording seemed to be close to the same. _________________ And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning. |
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Naruto20D20 Demon Carrier
Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 666 Location: Georgia.
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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So...
Genius Nin:
A level 2 would be able to learn ONE rank 3 technique.
A level 5 would be able to learn ONE rank 6 technique.
So on and so forth as the character levels...
Correct?
And advanced study:
A level 1 would be able to learn ONE rank 3 technique.
and it ends there, or keeps working as you level?
Correct? _________________ Baka.
Liberty Prime for President 2012: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298Cw3_qGwE |
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kp91 PM Frankto for a Special Title
Joined: 09 Aug 2006 Posts: 3076
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Naruto20D20 wrote: | So...
Genius Nin:
A level 2 would be able to learn ONE rank 3 technique.
A level 5 would be able to learn ONE rank 6 technique.
So on and so forth as the character levels...
Correct?
And advanced study:
A level 1 would be able to learn ONE rank 3 technique.
and it ends there, or keeps working as you level?
Correct? |
No. A Genius Nin can ALWAYS choose higher techs. So a level 1 could have all Rank 2 techniques, and next level get rank 3s.
Someone with Advanced Study can take 1 technique thats is 2 ranks higher. So you take it at first, you can take a rank 3, but you don't have to. If you're level 10, and still haven't taken a higher technique, you can get a rank 12. |
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Naruto20D20 Demon Carrier
Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 666 Location: Georgia.
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:56 am Post subject: |
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Ah, the way Genius Nin is worded in the book is kind'a confusing then.
Quote: |
You gain a +2 bonus to your Learn checks to learn a new technique, and you may learn a technique one rank higher than your level of the type you have chosen. |
Maybe if it read "you may learn techniques one rank higher than your level" _________________ Baka.
Liberty Prime for President 2012: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298Cw3_qGwE |
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Frankto Shinobigami
Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 7372 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:39 am Post subject: |
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If you can agree that "It's a cow" is a different sentence from "It is one cow," then you can agree that the wording is perfectly acceptable.
When it says "The character may learn a single technique of one rank higher than his level" then you'll know what to expect, hmm? _________________ "It's like making a cake, but instead of a cake it's a game and instead of frosting I have no life."
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - Java IRC Client
Thanks to all who donated! Your generosity is what keeps the project going! |
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Vanakoji Genin
Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 46 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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At first I thought genius nin worked as kp91 stated,
Quote: | A Genius Nin can ALWAYS choose higher techs. So a level 1 could have all Rank 2 techniques, and next level get rank 3s. |
Then after reading Frankto's reply, it seems like you may only learn ONE tech when you take the feat so... does genius nin work as...
#1) my original thoughts on the feat, (kp's statement)
#2) The character may learn a single technique of one rank higher than his level...upon taking this feat, (so it would only give access to ONE rank 2 tech since it must be taking at first level.
or
#3) The character may learn a single technique of one rank higher than his level...every level (allowing, at any given time, a character to have only one tech at a higher rank, like Naruto20D20 posted earlier)
?
I always thought genius nin applied to all techs of 1 rank higher until i read frankto's reply...
I always thought genius nin applied to all techs of 1 rank higher until i read frankto's reply... _________________ And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning. |
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Athildur Sexually progressive Valkyrie
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 3197 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Frankto's post means that you can always learn a technique one rank higher, because it doesn't explicitly state it applies to a single technique.
I have a puppeteer build around here somewhere (level 15). I'll dig it up and post some things here when I find it. _________________ Oy, this is going to be troublesome *sigh* |
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Vanakoji Genin
Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 46 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, i misunderstood his reply then, i feel stupid...
As far as feats go, i think i should get craft poisons and maybe gift of summoning or advanced seal pro.(more likely) at level 3 (for the storage of puppets. _________________ And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning. |
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Athildur Sexually progressive Valkyrie
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 3197 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, the build I have is:
Fast/Smart/Scout/Puppeteer
With 5 levels of puppeteer, took:
Advanced Puppetry I, II, III
Puppet Mastery, Puppet Defense
Some feats I took:
Dodge, Stealthy, Ninjutsu Adept
Multipuppet Fighting, Puppet Multiattack
(and more)
Imho, puppeteer gives you a lot of opportunities to costumize builds. There are plenty of things you can do to create/modify puppet parts, and there are a lot of things that you could do with puppet techniques (as in, creating new ones). _________________ Oy, this is going to be troublesome *sigh* |
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Naruto20D20 Demon Carrier
Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 666 Location: Georgia.
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Frankto wrote: | If you can agree that "It's a cow" is a different sentence from "It is one cow," then you can agree that the wording is perfectly acceptable.
When it says "The character may learn a single technique of one rank higher than his level" then you'll know what to expect, hmm? |
"You may have a cookie from the jar." (Implying ONE cookie.)
You may learn a technique one rank higher.
"You may have cookies from the jar."
You may learn techniques one rank higher.
Difference.
"It's" and "it is" has nothing to do with "a" being used to show singularity.
You pretty much just said... "If you can agree that a Cow is a mammal, and a mammal is a cow, then you can agree that a Lizard is a reptile."
err?
It's best to write as clearly as possible in English, which is why I suggested it. Also because everyone in the D20 game I am playing misunderstood it until this point, at least 12 people, thanks for clarification. _________________ Baka.
Liberty Prime for President 2012: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298Cw3_qGwE |
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hastur Grandmaster
Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 525
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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I only skimmed over, but I second Athildur on Fast Hero - remember that puppets will benefit from your class bonus to defense, so Fast 2/Smart 1 will be better entry than Smart 3. Also I'd take high Dex, weapon finesse as fast hero bonus feat and then take skilled puppeteer as my first choice of puppet mastery (another improvement to defense, plus that skilled puppeteer can make much diffrence in combat). Lastly I'd swap Genius Nin for Skilled - crafting puppets is easier than buying ones, and Puppeteers will benefit from additional skill points _________________ Three are the paths of soul:
One out - roam across the plain,
One back - dwell with the tribe and tent,
One in - turn an enemy's hate.
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Last edited by hastur on Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Athildur Sexually progressive Valkyrie
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 3197 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Oh yes, indeed.
But them, I am all for Skilled, almost regardless of what character you might take. Nin are very skill-dependant characters. It's nice having some extra skill points to spend... _________________ Oy, this is going to be troublesome *sigh* |
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Vanakoji Genin
Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 46 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the help so far on the build but one question, what do yo use to attack with before level 3 since puppeteers don't really take nin weapon pro.? _________________ And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning. |
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Athildur Sexually progressive Valkyrie
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 3197 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Level 1 - Skilled, Dodge. Occupation: Ninja Weapons Proficiency
Level 2 - Bonus Feat (Fast): Stealthy
Level 3 - Ninjutsu Adept.
I see no problems there.
And minor ninjutsu or genjutsu can also be used for combat officiency.
About weapon finesse: possible, but I'd advise against it in lower levels. As a puppeteer, you're not going to be using melee weaponry anyway, even at start. Taking the weapon finesse around the time you begin using puppets would be useful, I agree. But before that, I don't really see the need yet.
Or, you swap Stealthy with Weapon Finesse and take Stealthy later. The reason I'm hammering on Stealthy is: You'll be needing your hiding skills. Puppeteers don't have the highest hp, nor the best defenses. A good skill in hiding and moving silently provides defensive capabilities, as well as the ability to surprise opponents. With puppets, this brings convenient advantages... _________________ Oy, this is going to be troublesome *sigh* |
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Frankto Shinobigami
Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 7372 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Naruto20D20 wrote: | [ ... ] "It's" and "it is" has nothing to do with "a" being used to show singularity. [ ... ] |
Why am I even arguing with you? Out of nearly thirty thousand people and in almost four years, you're the first person to even bring it up. If your players can't understand one feat, how are they expected to even play shinobi? _________________ "It's like making a cake, but instead of a cake it's a game and instead of frosting I have no life."
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - Java IRC Client
Thanks to all who donated! Your generosity is what keeps the project going! |
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Whitefire First Mate! Arr!
Joined: 09 Sep 2006 Posts: 435
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Naruto20D20 wrote:
[ ... ] "It's" and "it is" has nothing to do with "a" being used to show singularity. [ ... ]
Frankto wrote:
Why am I even arguing with you? Out of nearly thirty thousand people and in almost four years, you're the first person to even bring it up. If your players can't understand one feat, how are they expected to even play shinobi? |
Wow really has this forum come to this, i now through in my two cents into this. If you don't understand a simple sentence such as the one in question then your character should be playing with an intelligence of 12 or lower. This sentence is simple, i ask Frankto not to change it because it would be a waste of time, if you have already changed it oh well maybe i will catch on to something like this sooner next time and comment on it stupidity. _________________ "Arrr!"
- Frankto |
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Frankto Shinobigami
Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 7372 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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I already changed it. Added a bit about the whatsit for the age requirements and age categories. _________________ "It's like making a cake, but instead of a cake it's a game and instead of frosting I have no life."
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Thanks to all who donated! Your generosity is what keeps the project going! |
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Whitefire First Mate! Arr!
Joined: 09 Sep 2006 Posts: 435
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Well dang, oh well i guess thanks for clearing up the age requirements and categories. _________________ "Arrr!"
- Frankto |
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Vanakoji Genin
Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 46 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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I realized my mistake and I felt like a retard after (so much for being confident about being ranked #1 in the school...) but as far as I'm concerned, the feat didn't need any changing. _________________ And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning. |
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Naruto20D20 Demon Carrier
Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 666 Location: Georgia.
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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When did suggestions become insults? I just saw reoccurring cases where they didn't understand so I felt that it might need to be reworded.
I suppose I'll keep suggestions to myself. I apologize. _________________ Baka.
Liberty Prime for President 2012: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298Cw3_qGwE |
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Whitefire First Mate! Arr!
Joined: 09 Sep 2006 Posts: 435
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Don't keep suggestions to your self just the way it was worded seemed like an argument or something to me. _________________ "Arrr!"
- Frankto |
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kp91 PM Frankto for a Special Title
Joined: 09 Aug 2006 Posts: 3076
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Frankto wrote: | If you can agree that "It's a cow" is a different sentence from "It is one cow," then you can agree that the wording is perfectly acceptable.
When it says "The character may learn a single technique of one rank higher than his level" then you'll know what to expect, hmm? |
There are better examples to use though. It says 'a', but that does not necessarily mean one, it just makes technique singular, meaning one at that time. It should say one time, or else you can learn "a technique one rank higher" and after learning it you can learn another. If you say you bought a car, nothing stops you from buying a car a week later. You still bought a car, but in the past week, you bought two. |
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hastur Grandmaster
Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 525
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Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: |
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Athildur wrote: | About weapon finesse: possible, but I'd advise against it in lower levels. As a puppeteer, you're not going to be using melee weaponry anyway, even at start. Taking the weapon finesse around the time you begin using puppets would be useful, I agree. But before that, I don't really see the need yet. |
Weapon finesse is not for fighting melee... Weapon finesse is to take Skilled Puppeteer - let's be honest, puppets will have much lower to-hit bonuses than regular character, and taking Skilled Puppeteer is a way to offset this a bit. _________________ Three are the paths of soul:
One out - roam across the plain,
One back - dwell with the tribe and tent,
One in - turn an enemy's hate.
------------------------------------------------
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Athildur Sexually progressive Valkyrie
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 3197 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Ah. Not really familiar with all puppeteer skills/feats. But if that is an extension of weapon finesse to puppets, then I approve. Because that was sort of the reason I was saying weapon finesse might be useful before taking puppeteer. Adding dex to puppet attacks i.s.o. str. _________________ Oy, this is going to be troublesome *sigh* |
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Vanakoji Genin
Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 46 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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I'll have to pick up that feat then to help my puppets to hit chance, along with other things.
What do you guys think about taking master crafter and build good parts? _________________ And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning. |
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