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Epic Kawarimi?
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Ryuugan
Jounin


Joined: 11 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject: Epic Kawarimi? Reply with quote

I never really thought about it until now, but if you applied Epic Technique Focus to Kawarimi or any of its variants, the best being (Shunzeki) wouldnt that mean you automatically succeed and negate an attack?
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dlaurindo
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think yes... but you have to rembember... the mastery step allow you to do it instant for an enemy up to ECL 25...
and it'll cost 10 chakra points that can't be converted... and you'll have to have a 'thing' to change place with you...
any PC or NPC at an ECL higher than 25 it's - at this point of rules at least - impossible to kawarimi.
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kp91
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankto is considering removing that restriction anyway, and besides, it's better than having a chance to not succeed.
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Frankto
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Joined: 16 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am?

Of note, this no longer works for Avoiding an Attack or Defensive Maneuvers.
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kp91
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankto wrote:
I am?

Of note, this no longer works for Avoiding an Attack or Defensive Maneuvers.

I thought I remembered that being mentioned in the Shinobigami game before I left.
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dlaurindo
Chuunin


Joined: 08 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there's no kawarimi to avoid atacks anymore?!?!?... poor smart heroes...
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Frankto
Shinobigami


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlaurindo wrote:
there's no kawarimi to avoid atacks anymore?!?!?... poor smart heroes...


What the hell are you on about? Less QQ, and l2read, noob.
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Athildur
Sexually progressive Valkyrie


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On that note, perhaps it might not be such a bad idea to allow Tobikiri Kawarimi to initially evade attacks up to ECL 10, and then have the masteries go up to ECL 35 or something. Or start at 5 and go up to 30. It gives slightly more incentive to learn the technique (because learning it generally implies you'll immediately need to master it a few times before it becomes fully functional), I think.

(Again, I haven't read the main file in a while....for all I know Tobikiri isn't even there anymore, was renamed, or works differently. If so, ignore my blabbering, please.)

Arguments can be thought of for reasons to include or not include the ECL mastery thing (to not include: It's your opponent's skill versus your skill in performing Kawarimi quickly, so it should always just be a ninjutsu check vs. a DC, nothing to do with ECL. To not include: Without the ECL restriction, someone with a decent build could evade attacks of enemies much, much stronger than him, making it unbalanced and overpowered.)
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Infinitus
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

not that my opinion counts,
but I think the whole kawarimi-mechanic sucks, it makes me feel like it is additionally engineered onto the technique system like a 3rd wheel,
so does speed and strength ranks make me feel too.

count it as a comment to the topic not to any previous posts at all.
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dlaurindo
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athildur wrote:

Arguments can be thought of for reasons to include or not include the ECL mastery thing (to not include: It's your opponent's skill versus your skill in performing Kawarimi quickly, so it should always just be a ninjutsu check vs. a DC, nothing to do with ECL.


I agree that to use kawarimi have nothing to do with ECL, stronger ninjas stronger jutsus/tatics... so they have to find their way through...

Quote:
To not include: Without the ECL restriction, someone with a decent build could evade attacks of enemies much, much stronger than him, making it unbalanced and overpowered.)


the GM have to remember that kawarimi has material focus... so... the restriction is more about the object to focus than the DC or ECL
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually...not really.

The material focus is just about *anything* lying around...it could be something in your backpack, and there's no rule saying you can't use the same focus again.
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zen
Rookie Younin


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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why shundou is superior in my mind. No material focus needed. I can't hide afterwards, but the character doesn't need to.
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NinjaCP
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Joined: 19 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shunzeki could work since it doesn't specify an ECL cap. It allows you to evade any attack or a technique that allows a reflex save, so long as the opponent is no more than 5 levels higher than you.

Granted, it takes a while to work your way up to the point where you can learn it.
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dlaurindo
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athildur wrote:
Actually...not really.

The material focus is just about *anything* lying around...it could be something in your backpack, and there's no rule saying you can't use the same focus again.


according to the book's description, it says "an object of aproximated size..." an i don't think THAT easy of finding sth medium size in your backpack
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kp91
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlaurindo wrote:
Athildur wrote:
Actually...not really.

The material focus is just about *anything* lying around...it could be something in your backpack, and there's no rule saying you can't use the same focus again.


according to the book's description, it says "an object of aproximated size..." an i don't think THAT easy of finding sth medium size in your backpack

How about your backback. Or you can use dirt on the ground even.
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Romfire
ANBU Rookie


Joined: 31 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kp91"]
dlaurindo wrote:
Athildur wrote:
Actually...not really.

The material focus is just about *anything* lying around...it could be something in your backpack, and there's no rule saying you can't use the same focus again.


according to the book's description, it says "an object of aproximated size..." an i don't think THAT easy of finding sth medium size in your backpack


True. You think the wood that they use is in their backpacks? I mean come on. Kakashi or sakura explain that you can take anything anywhere. Orochimaru used mud from Jiraiya's mudswamp. A tree can be used, since well, it's there. IT IS AN ANIME. You can use water, sand whatever. It doesnt really matter.
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Ryuugan
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya know..I never really understood the mechanics behind kawarimi. Why would you quickly run away, grab an object, run back JUST to place the object there, then run away again. Why not just run away the first time and be done with it? It doesnt really seem practical.
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Smitty
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because a major part of the technique is that it creats an Illusion that you (The object) has been sucessfully hit and killed, allowing you a counterattack.
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dlaurindo
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there's the problem... there's no run, change and run again...

how Romfire said 'it's an anime' and in this case this THING just change place with you creating that illusion.
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kp91
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryuugan wrote:
Ya know..I never really understood the mechanics behind kawarimi. Why would you quickly run away, grab an object, run back JUST to place the object there, then run away again. Why not just run away the first time and be done with it? It doesnt really seem practical.

As Smitty said, you use it because they think they hit you. Also, because they can move anywhere, the enemy now has no clue where they are.
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Keldon_Draconian
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ya know..I never really understood the mechanics behind kawarimi. Why would you quickly run away, grab an object, run back JUST to place the object there, then run away again. Why not just run away the first time and be done with it? It doesnt really seem practical.


I guess that you can create a "construct" to serve as a diversion, a few seconds before being hit. And then you sneak attack your enemy.

Remember what Orochimaru did with Sandaime? Sandaime hit an Orochimaru made of mud. The distraction gave Orochimaru enough time to hide/counterattack.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed. Kawarimi is not the 'poof' and revelation of an item.

Kawarimi replaces the user's body with some other object disguised as the user some time before he gets hit, allowing him to hide and create a distraction. That is the use of Kawarimi.
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OneManHorde
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is always a convinient piece of wood, stone ect nearby in the anime / manga.
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Felix_Zyphros
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, it's a shounen. Laws of nature are worthless in there. Just look at the Sharingan, which has turned Sasuke into an Emo Sue. Rolling Eyes
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OneManHorde
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felix_Zyphros wrote:
Of course, it's a shounen. Laws of nature are worthless in there. Just look at the Sharingan, which has turned Sasuke into an Emo Sue. Rolling Eyes


Emosuke... hehe

Everyone's favourite emo. In a game of naruto i ran in rl to try the system out i just let em use trees, rocks ect in the area.
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Reznor
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never liked the cap being < your CR.

I understand the need to avoid people being able to just treat high level attackers as trivial, but I think it should be useable on ppl SLIGHTLY higher level somehow.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reznor wrote:
I never liked the cap being < your CR.

I understand the need to avoid people being able to just treat high level attackers as trivial, but I think it should be useable on ppl SLIGHTLY higher level somehow.


Well, and correct me if this is wrong, but in the mastery section certain levels of mastery increase a character's ECL when performing the technique. This has led me, and a few other GMs I know, to allow characters to count that ECL for avoiding an attack (if the mastery is in kawarimi) we also use that logic in that if a player/NPC using technique granting an ECL because of mastery to attack a character and that ECL puts him over the kawarimi limit, even if his normal level would be avoidable, it is not. It adds an amazing balance to the game and gives players a reason to master their signature techniques instead of just mastering ones that grant "obvious" benefits. We chalk it up to surperior skill.
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... Well... it's not equal to or greater than YOUR CR. So Reznor is misquoting. It's if their CR is less than your ECL, and creatures even 4 levels higher than you, usually won't have a CR higher than your ECL.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's CR vs. LEVEL, not ECL. If you're level 4 and you fight a CR4, you're fine. If you're level 5 and you fight CR6, you're not. Regardless of the bloodline you have.
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Reznor
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that would be effective level with Kawarimi, right?

So, if I'm a 5 level ninja with the appropriate technique focus and mastery, I can kawarimi against CR 12 and below?

(Mastery is +6, right? No book in front of me)
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