Donate - narutod20 Store - Log in - Register - Profile - Log in, check your inbox - FAQ - Search - Members - Groups

New this week: Conjurer's Codex: Demon Clown at the Naruto d20 Store! Enjoy the book, everyone!

Epic Kawarimi?
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Narutod20.com Forum Index -> Naruto d20 Epics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Frankto
Shinobigami


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 7372
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. It's LEVEL, not effective level, or any other creative deviation from the rules. And level 5 plus 6 mastery would be CR11 and below, anyway.

If you're level 5, it's CR5 or below, even if you have full mastery.
_________________
"It's like making a cake, but instead of a cake it's a game and instead of frosting I have no life."

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - Java IRC Client

Thanks to all who donated! Your generosity is what keeps the project going!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dairius_Chi
Situationally Useful


Joined: 02 Jun 2010
Posts: 2633

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

also...why is someone asking a question about a level 5 character in teh epic section?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Reznor
Kage


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 235

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankto wrote:
No. It's LEVEL, not effective level, or any other creative deviation from the rules. .
Ok.
Quote:
And level 5 plus 6 mastery would be CR11 and below, anyway.
I threw on technique focus for another +1, since that's what I'd do.
----------------
Quote:
also...why is someone asking a question about a level 5 character in teh epic section?
1. Example. Easier to work with smaller numbers. I'll use bigger numbers next time if it makes you more comfortable.
2.
Frankto, not Reznor wrote:

It's CR vs. LEVEL, not ECL. If you're level 4 and you fight a CR4, you're fine. If you're level 5 and you fight CR6, you're not. Regardless of the bloodline you have.

Oh, then it's Reznor AFTER that wrote:
And that would be effective level with Kawarimi, right?

So, if I'm a 5 level ninja with the appropriate technique focus and mastery, I can kawarimi against CR 12 and below?

(Mastery is +6, right? No book in front of me)


lol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 2654

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait wait wait... now I'm confused. When you say effective level, what do you mean?

ECL?

Then what's the point of having that as part of the mastery since your ECL NEVER effects what a technique is capable of doing.

EDIT: also, reznor, full master only increases your effective level by 5. So even with the other feat, it's still only 11.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frankto
Shinobigami


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 7372
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So that mastery doesn't increase your effective level with avoidance techniques means that all techniques are unaffected by it?

You're right. I'll just take out the part where you can empower higher, create longer-lasting techniques, or increase the range. Because that never, ever, ever comes into play.
_________________
"It's like making a cake, but instead of a cake it's a game and instead of frosting I have no life."

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - Java IRC Client

Thanks to all who donated! Your generosity is what keeps the project going!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 2654

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wait... now I'm really confused. So it increases my level for all intents and purposes, it JUST doesn't work with avoidance techs?

because ECL doesn't effect any of that stuff you just said, which is what my question was.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frankto
Shinobigami


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 7372
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are you on about? ECL has nothing to do with mastery.
_________________
"It's like making a cake, but instead of a cake it's a game and instead of frosting I have no life."

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - Java IRC Client

Thanks to all who donated! Your generosity is what keeps the project going!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 2654

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok. That answers my question.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Reznor
Kage


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 235

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand not being able to Kawarimi much higher level people, but I don't understand why you want it so that it's IMPOSSIBLE to Kawarimi anyone any bit higher level ever, even with feats/mastery.

Though, I can't think of many examples of Kawarimi happening against a higher level target... Sakura v Zaku or Shikamaru v Tayuya?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 2654

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

look, CR is not equal to level. someone level 10 is probably only CR 7 or 8. so a level 8 person could kawarimi against them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hito Hyuga
Shinobigami


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 1432
Location: the shadows behind you

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reznor wrote:
I understand not being able to Kawarimi much higher level people, but I don't understand why you want it so that it's IMPOSSIBLE to Kawarimi anyone any bit higher level ever, even with feats/mastery.

Though, I can't think of many examples of Kawarimi happening against a higher level target... Sakura v Zaku or Shikamaru v Tayuya?


according to the D20 modern core rulebook a Heroic characters CR is equal to his level whereas an Ordinary's CR is equal to his level -1 (CR 1/2 for a level 1) so with that Heroic PCs can kawarimi against a character of at least one level higher so long as they are an ordinary.

So it is possible to kawarimi against some higher level characters
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
cmkawasaki
Lazy Programmer


Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 3388

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirShadow wrote:
look, CR is not equal to level. someone level 10 is probably only CR 7 or 8. so a level 8 person could kawarimi against them.


Hito Hyuga is correct - a enemies' CR is equal to their Level, as specifically stated . When that is not the case, (Such as Dark Elves or Goblins), it is specifically stated how to calculate their CR.

This is noted in the DM's Guide for D&D as well ('An NPC with a PC class has a Challenge Rating equal to the NPC?s level. Thus, an 8th-level sorcerer is an 8th-level encounter. As a rule of thumb, doubling the number of foes adds 2 to the CR.') as well as the D20 Modern Manual.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naruto d20 Store
SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 2654

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stick a level 10 hero against four level 10 heroes and I guarantee you it will not be a CR 10 encounter for the 4 lvl 10 heroes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frankto
Shinobigami


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 7372
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In point of fact, because the encounter challenges are not calculated that way and because there is no one else to increase or lower the number, it will be an EL10 encounter.
_________________
"It's like making a cake, but instead of a cake it's a game and instead of frosting I have no life."

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - Java IRC Client

Thanks to all who donated! Your generosity is what keeps the project going!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
cmkawasaki
Lazy Programmer


Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 3388

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirShadow wrote:
stick a level 10 hero against four level 10 heroes and I guarantee you it will not be a CR 10 encounter for the 4 lvl 10 heroes.


Depends how you style the 1 Level 10 Hero. Also depends on how smartly the one hero is played. Lots of variables come into play when it comes to a single enemy - You're right in that in high levels, 1 versus 4 looks a bit unfriendly to the one - however, the party will most likely take 20% damage within a round from the 1 Level 10 hero, and that's about appropriate for a CR 10 encounter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dairius_Chi
Situationally Useful


Joined: 02 Jun 2010
Posts: 2633

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notto mention, that a if statted correctly a CR 10 NPC COULD down a ECL 10 PC in a single round, i shouldn't have to make examples, there's always an easy way to kill someone, low fort saves, low will saves for powerful genjutsus, techs that can immobilize someone, making teh others choose whether to spend time freeing teh trapped hero or focusing on the enemy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frankto
Shinobigami


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 7372
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dairius_Chi wrote:
notto mention, that a if statted correctly a CR 10 NPC COULD down a ECL 10 PC in a single round


From a GM standpoint, a NPC built that way is built incorrectly.
_________________
"It's like making a cake, but instead of a cake it's a game and instead of frosting I have no life."

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - Java IRC Client

Thanks to all who donated! Your generosity is what keeps the project going!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dairius_Chi
Situationally Useful


Joined: 02 Jun 2010
Posts: 2633

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what if its teh BBEG? granted thatd probly be higher then CR10...

either way, i said could, doesnt mean you should
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naruto d20 Store
Reznor
Kage


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 235

PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
From a GM standpoint, a NPC built that way is built incorrectly.
Unfortunately, I know many GMs that would treat that as a great success. GMs trying to compete with players is lame.

However, I kinda think that players shouldn't assume that they can't. Really aggressive players sort of assume that the GM can't/won't punish them, so I occasionally pull a few moves that will force them to be more cautious.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Hito Hyuga
Shinobigami


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 1432
Location: the shadows behind you

PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reznor wrote:
Quote:
From a GM standpoint, a NPC built that way is built incorrectly.
Unfortunately, I know many GMs that would treat that as a great success. GMs trying to compete with players is lame.

However, I kinda think that players shouldn't assume that they can't. Really aggressive players sort of assume that the GM can't/won't punish them, so I occasionally pull a few moves that will force them to be more cautious.


I only use that when my players think they're the most powerful beings in that world. They are just among the most powerful. I tend to have to put them in place or they'll literally try to do whatever they want because 'no one' can stop them, as they used to state.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
blueskies05
Jounin


Joined: 11 Sep 2006
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Reznor has a good point here (and we each currently GM a game that the other is in). I think this is best expressed in the transition 3rd ed players make to 4th ed. Most 4th ed parties with new 3rd ed players contain a disproportionate amount of strikers because that is the way most DnD players were encouraged to play in that edition because the average player views killing the hell out of something as a more "rewarding" style of play.

Its a very good idea for a GM to keep this kind of style in check without removing the fun from the games. To be honest, in most games I play I prefer a striker role because that is the way I think. I contribute best to groups by setting the pace of the offense and forcing the enemies to respond. However, most games with players like me and those who take it to the next level and strike across the countryside would have a very short longevity if the GM did not punish overzealous attacking with little regard for counter attacks and defensive measures. The point is to keep your characters interested in the fun AND challenge of a game. Not enabling a culture of wreckless offensive solutions to problems.

Also, I rarely EVER run games where my players are the most powerful or even among the most powerful in their tier/setting. I closed in on that in my most recent game (lasted about 3 years and now has an alt timeline reboot starting up) but my players always knew their antics would be kept in check not by fiat but by the politics that more resourceful and powerful characters were involved in.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Aurion
Chuunin


Joined: 06 Aug 2010
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankto wrote:
Dairius_Chi wrote:
notto mention, that a if statted correctly a CR 10 NPC COULD down a ECL 10 PC in a single round


From a GM standpoint, a NPC built that way is built incorrectly.
I couldn't find it in the D20 modern books, but this is from the 3.5 DM's Guide:

-Using normal xp calculations, it should take about 13 encounters of CRs equal to the party's level(asuming 4 members of the party, as the DM's guide does) for the party to level up.

-An encounter of a CR equal to the party's level(assuming 4 members) should use up about 1/3 of the party's daily resources[health, spells(or Chakra Points), etc.]. Therefore, fighting 3 encounters of the party's level in a single day bring them to death, or close to death.

So a party of 4 10th level characters should have to use up 1/3 of their daily resources in defeating a single 10th level character, and it should take about 13 of those 10th level characters before they reach 11th level(assuming only combat xp).

TL;DR: The DM's guide agrees with Frankto.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Frankto
Shinobigami


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 7372
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't resurrect ancient threads, especially not just to tell someone I'm right. I'm locking this now.
_________________
"It's like making a cake, but instead of a cake it's a game and instead of frosting I have no life."

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - Java IRC Client

Thanks to all who donated! Your generosity is what keeps the project going!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Narutod20.com Forum Index -> Naruto d20 Epics All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group, Theme by GhostNr1