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Conceptual?True Strength/Speed vs. Strength/Speed Rank
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Strength and Speed: Which is best?
Activating them with chakra, ie. fake strength
18%
 18%  [ 8 ]
Having to hold back during an encounter, ie. real strength
81%
 81%  [ 35 ]
Total Votes : 43

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Frankto
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:28 am    Post subject: Conceptual?True Strength/Speed vs. Strength/Speed Rank Reply with quote

I was thinking of changing Strength and Speed ranks again. But not in the way you think. I was thinking about making them permanent. Before you panic, hear me out. And if you don't like it, then please try to hold your vote until we can work out a way to please most of you. Let me know what's not good so it can be made better.

My Reasoning: To learn a Strength and Speed rank technique, you work out a LOT to strengthen your muscles with chakra. You strive hard to become strong, and you become so strong that not suppressing your strength becomes a waste of energy.

You gain Strength Rank 1 with a technique, and from then on, Strength Rank 1 is always active during an encounter unless it is suppressed. Out of an encounter, you have to focus for a short period of time to call upon it.

What this basically means is that the strength and speed ranks would basically remain the same, with the subtle difference that you have to consciously hold back during combat instead of having to call on chakra to get strength.

It would mean that strength gained by the character or non-player character would be real strength, passive, rather than simply fake, borrowed one.

What this would change:
- Non-taijutsu character would benefit from it?to a certian extent (Even ninjutsu experts are much stronger than civilians.)

- During an encounter, the shinobi has to consciously hold back if he wants to conserve energy (instead of spending chakra to gain strength)

- Outside an encounter, the shinobi has to concentrate to use his full strength (unless stressed out or consciously tensing his muscle, anyone truly strong is just as strong as the average person)

- No more temporary ranks and confusion about stacking?objects and techniques that grant speed and strength ranks would grant permanent ranks or different bonus (such as a bonus to Learn checks to gain techniques that grant strength or speed ranks)

- 10 strength ranks and techniques to go beyond 3. Outrageous I know.
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Last edited by Frankto on Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:55 am; edited 2 times in total
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cmkawasaki
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It makes more sense than simply using Jutsus. After all, there's something about sitting there for a move action and what, Tensing your muscles for strength ranks that just reminds me of DBZ. And, as you told me, it was a free action to turn on and off strength and speed ranks, and if they have them on, then they pay the chakra cost as appropriate.

My suggestion is to make it a training technique - and while you're at the training techniques, it should be of note that transferring to a new body would make you lose these benefits. After all, it would be odd if Ino (For example) transferred to a genin's body and did Rank 4 speed right off the bat. The body shouldn't support that.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point, actually. I'll add that to possession if people like the idea.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what it would look like:


? Speed Rank 0: The character moves at normal speed and gains no benefits from this speed rank. When not suppressed, speed rank 0 costs no chakra.

? Speed Rank 1: The character gains a +2 bonus to Jump checks, a +1 dodge bonus to Defense and Reflex saves, and a +1 bonus to attack rolls. The character's base land speed increases by 10 feet, and gains a +1 speed bonus to Hide checks.

When not suppressed, speed rank 1 costs 1 chakra every 5 rounds.

? Speed Rank 2: The character gains a +3 bonus to Jump checks, a +2 dodge bonus to Defense and Reflex saves, and a +2 bonus to attack rolls. The character's base land speed increases by 15 feet, and gains a +2 speed bonus to Hide checks..

When not suppressed, speed rank 2 costs 2 chakra every 5 rounds.

? Speed Rank 3: The character gains a +4 bonus to Jump checks, a +3 dodge bonus to Defense and Reflex saves, and a +3 bonus to attack rolls. The character's base land speed increases by 20 feet, and gains a +3 speed bonus to Hide checks.

When not suppressed, speed rank 3 costs 3 chakra every 5 rounds.


EDIT: In a typical Frankt-fashion, I have everything statted out already, including strength ranks 7-10. At least, the rank part. I'm working on making a large file with every modification in it.


New item:

Training Weight: There are two parts to this item, each making up exactly half of the weight. The wrist weight give the character a penalty to Strength ranks, while the ankle weight give the character a penalty to Speed ranks.
- Type I: The character suffers a -1 penalty to strength and/or speed ranks and gains a +1 equipment bonus to Learn checks for training techniques to gain strength or speed ranks. If the character has the Strength rank 1 extraordinary ability, the type I weight does not count towards his maximum carrying capacity even when suppressed, only his effective weight.
- Type II: The character suffers a -2 penalty to strength and/or speed ranks and gains a +2 equipment bonus to Learn checks. The weights do not count towards the character's maximum carrying capacity if he has the Strength rank 2 extraordinary ability.
- Type III: The character suffers a -3 penalty to strength and/or speed ranks and gains a +3 equipment bonus to Learn checks. The weights do not count towards the character's maximum carrying capacity if he has the Strength rank 3 extraordinary ability.
- Type IV: The character suffers a -4 penalty to strength and/or speed ranks and gains a +4 equipment bonus to Learn checks. The weights do not count towards the character's maximum carrying capacity if he has the Strength rank 4 extraordinary ability.
- Type V: The character suffers a -5 penalty to strength and/or speed ranks and gains a +5 equipment bonus to Learn checks. The weights do not count towards the character's maximum carrying capacity if he has the Strength rank 5 extraordinary ability.
Purchase DC: 8 type I, 10 type II, 13 type III, 15 type IV, 18 type V; Weight: 30 lb. type I, 50 lb. type II, 70 lb. type III, 100 lb. type IV, 150 lb. type V; Restriction: ?.
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Last edited by Frankto on Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Infinitus
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as long as it requires still activation in combat I second it. I do not want to have any ninjas that move commonly around as if they were influenced by drugs quite heavily.

Why? Simply because it makes much more sense, the original power in Naruto is a combination of:

Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, Intelligence, Power (Strength), Speed, Chakra Amount and Knowledge of Seals.

What is even more fitting that in the Naruto Databooks it is a tenfolded graduation in those.

So Kudos for the decision.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ability instantly activates in combat, unless suppressed. Otherwise, the ability is always dormant unless activated. It's a far more realistic way of handling it?your strength is always dormant unless called on, because otherwise you would tire very quickly.

Tense your shoulders, clench your fist and your jaw and strain your muscles until they shake?that is you turning your passive strength into active strength. See how long you can hold that level of strain until you tire. And that is exactly what I always intended the Speed and Strength ranks to become, hence the muscle strain from using it too much (Fortitude save vs. Exhaustion, very poor way of handling it if I do say so myself).

Basically the new system is exactly the same as the old one?except that during an encounter, you can choose to suppress it instead of letting it activate, or not activate it fully, thus gain less/no benefit but also spend less/no chakra.

No checks involved, no concentration, you just decide to get your ass in gear and enter kick-ass mode.
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Last edited by Frankto on Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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Infinitus
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankto wrote:
The ability instantly activates in combat, unless suppressed. Otherwise, the ability is always dormant unless activated.


Nice to hear. <3

That is good, probably you should add in the description that you loose your dodge bonus to defense while flat-footed, just in case somebody does not want to look up what a dodge bonus is Smile
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll do that, thanks.


Keep 'em coming. I want this polished until I can see reflection in it. And Infinitus, read the edited post. ;p
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Infinitus
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. It gets nicer and more detailed by the minuted <3.

I hope that doesn't make you like using Sharingan paying then every round. Strength ranks had a high duration before, but they seem more like an encounter power now, so a "blanket amount" makes sense. Actually I do not hope it, but it would make things easier.

anyways anything is okay Very Happy I love them already. It seems you must find somebody else to have objections.
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ultima22689
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I think it looks great as well, if you think it about it makes perfect sense to describe it.

SPOILER





The perfect example of this concept is Rock Lee in the exams. He was moving at a fairly normal speed. Dropped the weights and turned into a ballistic missile and royally owned Gaara, when he used the secondary lotus he was exhasuted/fatigued and he couldn't use it until he had a chance to recover a bit.


That brings another thing to mind. Perhaps when fatigued they can't use them or only up to half of their total ranks or something like that?
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly. And good point, I'll add a penalty from fatigued and exhausted.
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ultima22689
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome, happy to contribute to the big picture.
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Shun
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinda cool, just new. Confused
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's roughly the same, just a subtle difference, I think. :>
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Viladin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully support this idea, Frankto!
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Hairesu_Kode
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in agreement with this change. It really bites that after building up all those speed rank jutsus and succeeding all the rolls you end up back at the same point you started. This way a fast hero can really live up to its name.
Frankto,m you've done it again, awesome home brew and awesome effort. Keep up the good work.
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golentan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds great. I always tended to fudge a little and do something like this myself, but not as elegantly.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only agree with this wonderful idea Smile. I'll read it more carefully later on, just because I can :p.
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Jensik
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a fantastic idea, and you have my support.
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Infinitus
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh probably one point, you should lower the hit bonus. ... Why?

Greater speed let's you not strike you more precise, well at least not as long as the the movement is really blured and the enemy confused by it.

Your speed helps your ability to dodge, but your speed doesn't change your attacking movement -- precise timing, thats what you need to dodge better, is nearly as effective as before, as long as you are able to pursue the path of the weapon that is.

Very Happy right?

So basically I am saying speed ranks should offer more defense than ability to hit.
Oh and what about a "taijutsu prerequisite" for taking those speed ranks, else anyone even if completely unskilled and unable to do properly a taijutsu move will be able to acquire these ranks. Smile

that is what just came to my mind while mapping oO
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sebsmith
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The really odd thing about the canon universe is that things seem to be both ways, but I can understand why nobody wants to model that.
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Lord Cruentus
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, these new rules work perfectly.

ultima22689 wrote:
Yeah, I think it looks great as well, if you think it about it makes perfect sense to describe it.

SPOILER

The perfect example of this concept is Rock Lee in the exams. He was moving at a fairly normal speed. Dropped the weights and turned into a ballistic missile and royally owned Gaara, when he used the secondary lotus he was exhasuted/fatigued and he couldn't use it until he had a chance to recover a bit.


That brings another thing to mind. Perhaps when fatigued they can't use them or only up to half of their total ranks or something like that?


Also, relating to this instance. Maybe you could say Rock Lee was wearing the weights so that he wouldn't have to suppress his power (i.e. rank: 0 or 1). In other words, he was fighting at his fullest with them on, but the weights were keeping him human. When he took them off, his body wasn't restricted anymore, and went all Super Seiyen. That way, there would actually be a reason to wear weights.

Just a thought.
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ultima22689
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord_Infinitus wrote:
Oh probably one point, you should lower the hit bonus. ... Why?

Greater speed let's you not strike you more precise, well at least not as long as the the movement is really blured and the enemy confused by it.

Your speed helps your ability to dodge, but your speed doesn't change your attacking movement -- precise timing, thats what you need to dodge better, is nearly as effective as before, as long as you are able to pursue the path of the weapon that is.

Very Happy right?

So basically I am saying speed ranks should offer more defense than ability to hit.
Oh and what about a "taijutsu prerequisite" for taking those speed ranks, else anyone even if completely unskilled and unable to do properly a taijutsu move will be able to acquire these ranks. Smile

that is what just came to my mind while mapping oO




SPOILER


Well, I don't know about that one. The whole Gaara fight which I thought was a perfect example showed that when Lee couldn't hit Gaara he took off the weights so his speed could surpass Gaara's defense. He took them off and I guess he was moving at rank 3? He then beat the breaks off of Gaara after the speed enhanced his attacks to hit.

If I were in a boxing match which I have been quite a few times if you fight a fast person it is much harder to dodge their attacks opposed to a big lumbering power house that while his swings would bruise me pretty badly its tons easier to dodge or block. Thats part of what made Bruce Lee such a deadly force and its like that in most fighting games like Guilty gear for example. Chip is incredibly fast. If you swing at chip and miss you will get a 8 hit combo on you guaranteed if the player knows what he is doing thanks to the speed that Chip has.

So I think Speed does affect how well you can hit someone, what makes me wonder though is why Taijutsu is modified by strength and not dexterity?
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Infinitus
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ultima22689 wrote:

SPOILER


Well, I don't know about that one. The whole Gaara fight which I thought was a perfect example showed that when Lee couldn't hit Gaara he took off the weights so his speed could surpass Gaara's defense. He took them off and I guess he was moving at rank 3? He then beat the breaks off of Gaara after the speed enhanced his attacks to hit.

If I were in a boxing match which I have been quite a few times if you fight a fast person it is much harder to dodge their attacks opposed to a big lumbering power house that while his swings would bruise me pretty badly its tons easier to dodge or block. Thats part of what made Bruce Lee such a deadly force and its like that in most fighting games like Guilty gear for example. Chip is incredibly fast. If you swing at chip and miss you will get a 8 hit combo on you guaranteed if the player knows what he is doing thanks to the speed that Chip has.

So I think Speed does affect how well you can hit someone, what makes me wonder though is why Taijutsu is modified by strength and not dexterity?


Yeah, I didn't denied it, I only said speed should give more defense than to hit. Take imho the Kimimaro fight against Lee. Kimimaro did not move as fast as Lee, but Lee still could not hit him. It only says Gaaras sand guard was defeated by speed.
Or Hidan is the slowest Akatsuki, still he fends off attacks really good (if you let the immortal thing away) and it is his level based defense is not a good reply either, in high levels you have more to hit than to defense, that means his defense is rather low, so others could hit him rather easily, despite his "not dodginng".
Or see the clone of Kisame, he had a high defense, and still his defense with combat expertise, was only broken by the hachimon release by Gai, who is really fast.
Note that this is again the high level variant. In low-levels adding as much defense as to hit with rank I and II are not really that problems, but in high levels, it is quite unbalancing.
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ultima22689
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord_Infinitus wrote:
ultima22689 wrote:

SPOILER


Well, I don't know about that one. The whole Gaara fight which I thought was a perfect example showed that when Lee couldn't hit Gaara he took off the weights so his speed could surpass Gaara's defense. He took them off and I guess he was moving at rank 3? He then beat the breaks off of Gaara after the speed enhanced his attacks to hit.

If I were in a boxing match which I have been quite a few times if you fight a fast person it is much harder to dodge their attacks opposed to a big lumbering power house that while his swings would bruise me pretty badly its tons easier to dodge or block. Thats part of what made Bruce Lee such a deadly force and its like that in most fighting games like Guilty gear for example. Chip is incredibly fast. If you swing at chip and miss you will get a 8 hit combo on you guaranteed if the player knows what he is doing thanks to the speed that Chip has.

So I think Speed does affect how well you can hit someone, what makes me wonder though is why Taijutsu is modified by strength and not dexterity?


Yeah, I didn't denied it, I only said speed should give more defense than to hit. Take imho the Kimimaro fight against Lee. Kimimaro did not move as fast as Lee, but Lee still could not hit him. It only says Gaaras sand guard was defeated by speed.
Or Hidan is the slowest Akatsuki, still he fends off attacks really good (if you let the immortal thing away) and it is his level based defense is not a good reply either, in high levels you have more to hit than to defense, that means his defense is rather low, so others could hit him rather easily, despite his "not dodginng".
Or see the clone of Kisame, he had a high defense, and still his defense with combat expertise, was only broken by the hachimon release by Gai, who is really fast.
Note that this is again the high level variant. In low-levels adding as much defense as to hit with rank I and II are not really that problems, but in high levels, it is quite unbalancing.


True, true. Well, it depends on the kind of game it is, there are far more scary things out there speed ranks IMO. In all honesty I think it would contribute as much to offense as it would a defense. There is nothing more scary than fighting a skinny guy who knows how to fight and is scrappy. Those guys are hard as heck to hit and every time you swing and miss you get four blows into whatever area was open and it sucks hard.

SPOILER


I'm comparing real life situations to the game though so I could be wrong when it comes to the game and the anime/manga but I think Kimimaro took a total defense stance because until he began actively using his bloodline he was for the most part on the defensive trying to dodge Lee, if anything I think Kimimaro was taking advantage of speed ranks as well, especially with the way he parried constantly with that dagger.
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Ryuugan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A high class defense bonus, dexterity, and use of combat expertise or fighting defensively explains Lees inability to hit Kimmaro just fine. Speed isnt the only skill that determines who well one can dodge, fighting experience, hence a class defense bonus.

I'm loving the change to speed and strength ranks, even though the change might seem minor, a lot of flavor is now put back into the game, so Its more enjoyable now.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to hear. I'm also curious to know why someone voted they didn't like it, but ah well.

As for lowering the hit bonus of speed rank, I can only agree for epic speed ranks. If it ever becomes a problem, I'll see about lowering it.

To +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +5 +6 +6 +7 +8 maybe. But for now I'll try it out it is. Also, these are the costs I have for both strength and speed ranks 1-10. Let me know what you think:

- Rank 1: 1 chakra per 5 rounds
- Rank 2: 2 chakra per 5 rounds
- Rank 3: 3 chakra per 5 rounds
- Rank 4: 4 chakra per 5 rounds
- Rank 5: 1 chakra per round
- Rank 6: 3 chakra per 2 rounds
- Rank 7: 2 chakra per round
- Rank 8: 5 chakra per 2 rounds
- Rank 9: 3 chakra per round
- Rank 10: 6 chakra per round
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ultima22689
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks good to me, it seems to flow with the idea that these are your actual abilities.

I would imagine this new system would eliminate permanent speed and strength ranks seeing as these are similar in the idea except more balanced.
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CallosDeTerran
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea but my own question is how this will affect templates and bloodlines that give strength and speed ranks like the Cursed Seal. Do you automatically qualify for the speed and strength ranks higher then normal (as usual) when you transform still? Or is there some other solution in mind?
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With costs being the same, and I agree on the new costs, I wonder about a few things:


- Speed Ranks remain virtually unchanged in what they do. Their bonuses are more or less the same. For strength vs. speed ranks to be effective, I hope to see Strength Ranks do more than just a bonus to hit and damage, as these two might be on par with the hit and defense bonus granted by speed ranks. This leaves speed ranks with a bonus to Reflex saves and skill checks, which the Strength ranks currently do not have, excepting special bonuses at certain strength ranks.

- Furthermore, how would one go about suppressing speed/strength ranks? Does it involve checks or saves? And, as said, would weights simply give bonuses to said checks or allow for automatic suppression up to a certain Rank?
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