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fenrirarckon Genin
Joined: 07 Dec 2007 Posts: 12
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: dexterity taijutsu |
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the skill checks and class dificulty of taijutsu techiniques are based in STR atribute. but exists a lot of players and NPCs taijutsus based in DEX atribute.
my sugestion is:
make one talent to change the based atribute of taijutsu skill and Class dificulty atribute for DEX. is make more choices of characters to play. and create a new menber of taijutsu fighters. the DEX taijutsu fighters.
in my campaign i make the talent weapon finesse a produce a change of i suggest above.
but maybe a creation of talent is the best choice... _________________ Hyuuga is invecible. |
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ultima22689 Kage
Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 285
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: dexterity taijutsu |
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fenrirarckon wrote: | the skill checks and class dificulty of taijutsu techiniques are based in STR atribute. but exists a lot of players and NPCs taijutsus based in DEX atribute.
my sugestion is:
make one talent to change the based atribute of taijutsu skill and Class dificulty atribute for DEX. is make more choices of characters to play. and create a new menber of taijutsu fighters. the DEX taijutsu fighters.
in my campaign i make the talent weapon finesse a produce a change of i suggest above.
but maybe a creation of talent is the best choice... |
QFT. I've been having this same idea in my head for a long time, I have always and always will play DEX taijutsu users. |
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Chaos4knuckles Younin Commander
Joined: 28 Oct 2008 Posts: 526 Location: The border of the Village Hidden in the Valley of the Sun, & Reno, the realm of Power
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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That's smart, tell the creator what to do... Its called make your own feat in your group. like the Feat Will Over flesh, use your brain! _________________ http://svlogthir.mybrute.com
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ultima22689 Kage
Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 285
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Chaos4knuckles wrote: | That's smart, tell the creator what to do... Its called make your own feat in your group. like the Feat Will Over flesh, use your brain! |
You don't have to be a douche about it, its something that should be addressed so the game itself can be improved upon instead of being quiet and just making house rules. |
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fenrirarckon Genin
Joined: 07 Dec 2007 Posts: 12
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: |
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i think in a talent called. "Agile Taijutsu" is a good name ^^
but i say in the previus post , maybe 2 talents to mae yur taijutsu user do the things by dexterity is a so much talents!!!. naruto d20 have a deficiency of the palyers get a litle quantity of talents... more one talent to do you calculate a taijutsus techiniques and skill maybe is so much talents for you...
i suggest to make this ability to calcutate de skill taijutsu and taijutsu techiniques DC, for the talent "weapon finesse". so only one talent is required to make your taijutsu user STR to DEX taijutsu user!!!
^^ _________________ Hyuuga is invecible. |
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Mizuno Kaitsu Kage
Joined: 23 Nov 2008 Posts: 292 Location: Detroit, MI
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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I dont think Chaos is being out of line at all.
That's not something you need to create an entirely new talent tree for.
There is a very good reason that home-brewing is suggested.
If every little idea from every corner of the forum was put into the pdf, it'd be over bound with silly ideas that 80% of people probably wouldn't even use.
I think thats the fun of the system. Just add in what you need to. _________________ "There are only two ways off this battlefield, friend. Unfortunately, leaving expired the moment you crossed paths with a Kirigakure shinobi."
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today! |
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Athildur Sexually progressive Valkyrie
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 3197 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Mizuno Kaitsu wrote: | I dont think Chaos is being out of line at all.
That's not something you need to create an entirely new talent tree for.
There is a very good reason that home-brewing is suggested.
If every little idea from every corner of the forum was put into the pdf, it'd be over bound with silly ideas that 80% of people probably wouldn't even use.
I think thats the fun of the system. Just add in what you need to. |
Certainly, this is true for many things. But an idea such as using dexterity for taijutsu is something a lot of people would like to use or do use. Including something as this in the main file as an optional rule, or as a talent/feat takes a few lines, but would be well worth it. _________________ Oy, this is going to be troublesome *sigh* |
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Keldon_Draconian Grandmaster
Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 1251 Location: Hidden Sand
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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I also think it's something useful enough to be made into a rule; however, i think it should be a feat (not a talent), to be in pair with will over flesh, force of personality and other feats that change the relevant ability modifier for something. _________________ Kakarot... KAKAROOOT! |
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fenrirarckon Genin
Joined: 07 Dec 2007 Posts: 12
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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sorry people. i am brazilian and the feat as translated "talento". and is wrote talent ....but i want to say feat... sorry guys. _________________ Hyuuga is invecible. |
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Keldon_Draconian Grandmaster
Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 1251 Location: Hidden Sand
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | sorry people. i am brazilian and the feat as translated "talento". and is wrote talent ....but i want to say feat... sorry guys. |
I know what you are talking about... (Eu sou Brasileiro tamb?m ).
If you prefer to write in portuguese, i can answer you by PM. _________________ Kakarot... KAKAROOOT! |
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Chaos4knuckles Younin Commander
Joined: 28 Oct 2008 Posts: 526 Location: The border of the Village Hidden in the Valley of the Sun, & Reno, the realm of Power
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Well just make a homebrew feat, I don't know, you can call it Nimble Body
the prerequisites are that you must have like 14 dex and all melee attack checks instead use your Dex modifier. Well... that was easy. _________________ http://svlogthir.mybrute.com
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ultima22689 Kage
Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 285
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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The point wasn't that it is as simple as a homebrew feat, it was that this isn't really cool homebrew template, bloodline or something of that sort that doesn't need to be in the file, this is something important and simple enough to be added to the main file because alot of people are calling for it. |
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Keldon_Draconian Grandmaster
Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 1251 Location: Hidden Sand
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Well just make a homebrew feat, I don't know, you can call it Nimble Body
the prerequisites are that you must have like 14 dex and all melee attack checks instead use your Dex modifier. Well... that was easy. |
That would make the feat better than Weapon Finesse. That is just wrong.
IF the feat allowed the character to use the dex modifier ONLY on unarmed attacks AND unarmed taijutsu skill checks/DC, that would be more proper, IMHO.
Also, why so much hostility? Just because you don't like the idea, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken into consideration. It is a concept general enough to fit into the main file, and many people agree that this could be made into an interesting feat.
Also, the community is moving very slowly lately. People don't ask for/suggest things to be included into the main file as often as before - and when they do they are rewarded with your hostility?
Wait to see what people think, what Frankto thinks and how/if the idea can be balanced, instead of throwing it to the bin right away. Of course, there is the possibility of an idea so stupid that no one will even pay attention to it - but this surely isn't the case.
Be a little more open minded, chaos. And a little less hostile. _________________ Kakarot... KAKAROOOT! |
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ultima22689 Kage
Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 285
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Keldon_Draconian wrote: | Quote: | Well just make a homebrew feat, I don't know, you can call it Nimble Body
the prerequisites are that you must have like 14 dex and all melee attack checks instead use your Dex modifier. Well... that was easy. |
That would make the feat better than Weapon Finesse. That is just wrong.
IF the feat allowed the character to use the dex modifier ONLY on unarmed attacks AND unarmed taijutsu skill checks/DC, that would be more proper, IMHO.
Also, why so much hostility? Just because you don't like the idea, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken into consideration. It is a concept general enough to fit into the main file, and many people agree that this could be made into an interesting feat.
Also, the community is moving very slowly lately. People don't ask for/suggest things to be included into the main file as often as before - and when they do they are rewarded with your hostility?
Wait to see what people think, what Frankto thinks and how/if the idea can be balanced, instead of throwing it to the bin right away. Of course, there is the possibility of an idea so stupid that no one will even pay attention to it - but this surely isn't the case.
Be a little more open minded, chaos. And a little less hostile. |
Yeah, lets get the idea train rolling, its been awhile since the game itself has been talked about huh?
I also agree with something like that however I think that there should be an option to choose unarmed, or whatever weapon that you want to use and ONLY that weapon and make the feat stackable so you can take it again to get other weapons or unarmed. |
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Chaos4knuckles Younin Commander
Joined: 28 Oct 2008 Posts: 526 Location: The border of the Village Hidden in the Valley of the Sun, & Reno, the realm of Power
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Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: |
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wooo, I never said I didn't like the idea, it just seem like he demanded something opposed to the idea of this board, suggestion and requests. I like the idea, I prefer a fast quick character to bulk macho guy any day. The problem with the talent is that it must likely will be first with unarmed attacks and then progress into more powerful attacks such as using weapons.
I'm not condescending right now, but first make the ideas this talent would underline the basics of which main attacks such as unarmed and dealing with weapons, will it be used to anything else as well?
surprised, yes? _________________ http://svlogthir.mybrute.com
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Shun Shinobigami
Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 1262 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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or hey, (sarcasm) let's make a talent that makes Ninjutsu's and Genjutsu's attribute both the same stats because I want to maximize.
There's no need to change the attribute; feat, talent, or otherwise. It's just another player trying to maximize by giving himself better defense, reflex, initiative, and etc. at the expense of lower strength which wont matter because they are working around it. _________________
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Sengoku System
Me: the hizoku attacks you with his yari, your actions?
Max: I evade with a 13 and counter attack with a 1,000... *pause for silence* |
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Athildur Sexually progressive Valkyrie
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 3197 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Shun wrote: | or hey, (sarcasm) let's make a talent that makes Ninjutsu's and Genjutsu's attribute both the same stats because I want to maximize.
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Except that makes no sense. Using Dexterity for taijutsu skill checks and DCs does.
Yes, I realise that makes Dexterity an uber skill for those taijutsu users, even more so than it already is. Well, tough luck. It still doesn't modify melee damage, and there is, as far as I know, no feat or talent that can change that.
Besides, if you make this a feat, and someone does go this way, they will need to spend two feats (Weapon Finesse and the new one) to be a Dex-based taijutsu user. And in NarutoD20 feats are a very valuable commodity.
Additionally, unless the players get their hands on massive amounts of steroids or stat-enhancing drugs/effects, the problem is not that big, since the stats don't go up much. And if the player turns out to minmax, then a good GM will gladly take advantage of it and show him the error of his ways. _________________ Oy, this is going to be troublesome *sigh* |
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ultima22689 Kage
Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 285
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Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Shun wrote: | or hey, (sarcasm) let's make a talent that makes Ninjutsu's and Genjutsu's attribute both the same stats because I want to maximize.
There's no need to change the attribute; feat, talent, or otherwise. It's just another player trying to maximize by giving himself better defense, reflex, initiative, and etc. at the expense of lower strength which wont matter because they are working around it. |
I disagree this isn't about min/maxing, multiple people on here have voiced that this is a good idea. It makes no sense that being stronger makes you better at PERFORMING taijutsu, I tried to learn martial arts when I was 14 I could hardly bench 100 back then, now I bench 300 every other day, tried learning a bit of martial arts again a week ago, being 3 times stronger didn't help me perform better but practicing my coordination ala DEXTERITY improved me a bit, I didn't take it anywhere and quit three months after again but it helped that I practiced coordination opposed to just flexing my muscles even more.
Point is there is no reason someone shouldn't be able to base their dex skill off of dexterity. A STR based taijutsu user will always be up a feat and hit harder than a DEX based one. There is nothing about min maxing here, its just common sense. |
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Cosmik Debris Genin
Joined: 07 Jun 2009 Posts: 7
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Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject: 2 cents |
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heres my two cents, instead of making a feat or talent that allows you to switch the 2 of them i would suggest talking with your GM and asking one of 2 things
A) Can you allow me to create a Taijutsu Technqiue that allows me to use my dexterity instead of my strength?
-or-
B) Can you give me a weapon that uses a dex bonus to damage instead of strenth
Ill give you an example of B
Weapon Name - Sword of Changes
Type - Short Sword (simple weapon)
Damage - 2D20 Taking lowest, crits on doubles, Weapon is destroyed on a roll of double 20's
This weapon is a sword that dosent realy matter how hard you hit someone with, much like a dagger, its all about how and were you place the blade
So you would add dexterity to the damage, like it says it dosent matter how hard, but where you hit another example would be
Weapon Name - Mirror Sword
Type - Katana
Damage - 1d6 + Dex modifier
This sword has a blade on both side's, requiring you to use grace and not brute force to use efficiently
Any-who that is just my 2 cents, its all up to your GM because Taijutsu is good for strength based charachters and Ninjutsu and Genjutsu are good for those faster charachters _________________ heres a little piece of TH 7 |
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ultima22689 Kage
Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 285
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Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: 2 cents |
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Cosmik Debris wrote: | heres my two cents, instead of making a feat or talent that allows you to switch the 2 of them i would suggest talking with your GM and asking one of 2 things
A) Can you allow me to create a Taijutsu Technqiue that allows me to use my dexterity instead of my strength?
-or-
B) Can you give me a weapon that uses a dex bonus to damage instead of strenth
Ill give you an example of B
Weapon Name - Sword of Changes
Type - Short Sword (simple weapon)
Damage - 2D20 Taking lowest, crits on doubles, Weapon is destroyed on a roll of double 20's
This weapon is a sword that dosent realy matter how hard you hit someone with, much like a dagger, its all about how and were you place the blade
So you would add dexterity to the damage, like it says it dosent matter how hard, but where you hit another example would be
Weapon Name - Mirror Sword
Type - Katana
Damage - 1d6 + Dex modifier
This sword has a blade on both side's, requiring you to use grace and not brute force to use efficiently
Any-who that is just my 2 cents, its all up to your GM because Taijutsu is good for strength based charachters and Ninjutsu and Genjutsu are good for those faster charachters |
Well it was more about making it possible to just be dex based and be any kind of taijutsu user you want. Dex works very well with taijutsu if you stat yourself right and even aside from taijutsu based characters a dex based taijutsu may allow ninjutsu and genjutsu users more defense. A taijustsu master puppeteer anyone? As it is right now if you go down another route opposed to mainly taijutsu your taijutsu will be mediocre at best. With this you can be somewhat good at taijutsu even though you still won't compare to a primarily taijutsu user.
I'm sure most people already talk to their GM about it right now and implement it every now and then I've been in a couple of games where this has been the case. This is something that won't be difficult to cook up as an easy variant rule/feat/talent and is definitely important enough to make it into the book IMO.
Look at some real life martial artists. Bruce Lee was strong but he wasn't no hunk of muscle, he relied on his dexterity to rape people into the ground. Look at Jackie Chan or Jet Li, they rely little on strength many times more so than Bruce Lee did. |
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Revan619 ANBU Captain
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 179
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Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:39 am Post subject: |
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from basing it loosely off the rules for taijutsu master, we have made a house rule saying any taijutsu checks made by a taijutsu master can be done from strength wisdom or dexterity
p.s
taijutsu puppeteer sounds like the worst possible combination ever XD
I prefer if your going to combine something like that Genjutsu and Taijutsu, if you start genjutsu people will try to get in close, and taijutsu will counter, and in all of our games, the players ignor the genjutsu skill, so genjutsu users rape them hard _________________ "So you wish to face me?
Well dear child then answer me this, how do you defeat me when your fighting the very rain itself?" - Yamako Hyuga the Tide of Konoha
"*sigh* Why is it the weak that always challenge me to a fight?" - Messa
"Ahhh we been rumbled!!!! quick Messa flush the weed!!!" - The Kai of Konoha |
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V.C. Genin
Joined: 26 Apr 2009 Posts: 4
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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After reading this topic I got this idea. Maybe instead of creating a feat u could improve the way of expertise talent from the taijutsu master, or better, create a new talent that would require way of expertise.
I think that be like everyone that try to fight melee (or in the case use taijutsu) naturally appies it strenght instead of agility but just someone with experience in that area could possible do that.
I would also fit that someone that fight in a very brutal, agressive or even clumsy way with the brawl feat (like Naruto) couldn't never use this talent like a master with the combat martial arts feat would use. |
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Catch Genin
Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 38 Location: Romancing the Windy City
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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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This is actually a pretty poor idea. Either you're wasting feats and nerfing yourself or you're a Single-Ability-Dependent beast. There's not really a middle ground.
I understand the reasoning for the suggestion, in that ninja "ideally" are supposed to be faster than they are strong. The Narutovese subverts this stereotype (and reinforces it in come cases), making physically powerful ninja both sensible and viable. The arguments brought up about weight lifting, quickness and other "real life" examples are moot, because we're talking about a highly fantastical game. Simply put, Strength measures a character's muscle mass/density and their ability to exert themselves. It's quite logical to base physical fighting aptitude on physique - toned, exercised muscles make for easier training. Obviously, this is just fluff.
In terms of game statistics, subbing out Dexterity for Strength as the key ability for Taijutsu has several problems. Assuming this is done with a feat, you're going to need two feats ('Agile Taijutsu' and Weapon Finesse) to switch out the modifiers, putting a character quite behind his peers. While it's true that by dumping Str and maximizing Dex, you will be SAD (Single Ability Dependent) in terms of to-hit and AC/Reflex, you're losing out on something important: saving throw DCs. Your character's flexibility and agility has no effect on how hard his fists hit - that's all muscle, which is why Weapon Finesse only applies to attack rolls. Save DCs are extremely important to a combat system where a large proportion of the offensive abilities allow for some sort of damage or effect mitigation.
To summarize (tl;dr), using Dexterity for Taijutsu has the significant advantage of using the same stat for attack rolls, AC, Reflex saves, as well as Taijtusu skill and Lean checks. That sends a red flag to me as both a regular player and GM. It doesn't make sense to include Taijutsu save DCs in that list, but if it is, that unbalances the idea even more. Two feats are not worth the advantage of being Single Ability Dependent. The only way I'd see it being viable is if Dexterity is only used for skill checks, as with Jyuuken. |
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ultima22689 Kage
Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 285
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Catch wrote: | This is actually a pretty poor idea. Either you're wasting feats and nerfing yourself or you're a Single-Ability-Dependent beast. There's not really a middle ground.
I understand the reasoning for the suggestion, in that ninja "ideally" are supposed to be faster than they are strong. The Narutovese subverts this stereotype (and reinforces it in come cases), making physically powerful ninja both sensible and viable. The arguments brought up about weight lifting, quickness and other "real life" examples are moot, because we're talking about a highly fantastical game. Simply put, Strength measures a character's muscle mass/density and their ability to exert themselves. It's quite logical to base physical fighting aptitude on physique - toned, exercised muscles make for easier training. Obviously, this is just fluff. |
Not neccesarily, you could make a ninjutsu centric character with skill in taijutsu but you're wrong. If the skill was just fighting then that might be different but bigger muslces don't do anything to improve your aim. I work out 5 days a week, weigh 260-266 pounds and I have 8% body fat i'm a walking mass of muscle but I still fight as terribly as I did when I was a tub of lard, why? Because I never trained my aim. When you join a marital arts school they don't make you make your muscles bigger, they train you style and graces hence dexterity, they aren't moot because that is how it works. This is basic logic, not opinions.
Catch wrote: |
In terms of game statistics, subbing out Dexterity for Strength as the key ability for Taijutsu has several problems. Assuming this is done with a feat, you're going to need two feats ('Agile Taijutsu' and Weapon Finesse) to switch out the modifiers, putting a character quite behind his peers. While it's true that by dumping Str and maximizing Dex, you will be SAD (Single Ability Dependent) in terms of to-hit and AC/Reflex, you're losing out on something important: saving throw DCs. Your character's flexibility and agility has no effect on how hard his fists hit - that's all muscle, which is why Weapon Finesse only applies to attack rolls. Save DCs are extremely important to a combat system where a large proportion of the offensive abilities allow for some sort of damage or effect mitigation.
To summarize (tl;dr), using Dexterity for Taijutsu has the significant advantage of using the same stat for attack rolls, AC, Reflex saves, as well as Taijtusu skill and Lean checks. That sends a red flag to me as both a regular player and GM. It doesn't make sense to include Taijutsu save DCs in that list, but if it is, that unbalances the idea even more. Two feats are not worth the advantage of being Single Ability Dependent. The only way I'd see it being viable is if Dexterity is only used for skill checks, as with Jyuuken. |
once again, wrong, SAD characters are made just fine without this and do just as well. You can take a couple of feats and make a SAD character using other stats as well. Two feats is plenty enough of a sacrifice for such a thing. Regardless of the feat existed or not people will still use one stat for attack rolls, AC, Reflex saves regardless, they just won't hit as hard which is something that has already been acknowledged, no one ever mentioned using dexterity as damage modifier. Basing DCs and checks will hardly unbalance the game either because learn checks are irrelevant to combat other than the fact that you learn techs generally for combat, as far as save DCs then OH NOES! That dex based taijutsu user has a decent DC for his techs! What has the world come to? Please, the game won't become unbalanced at all.
If you saw the reasoning then you wouldn't have posted.Please excuse me if the post came off in the least bit hostile, I have no intention for it to be so but after reading it I could see the possibility. |
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Frankto Shinobigami
Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 7372 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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As a rule, I avoid giving the same ability score both offensive and defensive advantages. _________________ "It's like making a cake, but instead of a cake it's a game and instead of frosting I have no life."
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - Java IRC Client
Thanks to all who donated! Your generosity is what keeps the project going! |
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Catch Genin
Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 38 Location: Romancing the Windy City
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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This,
ultima22689 wrote: |
Please excuse me if the post came off in the least bit hostile, I have no intention for it to be so but after reading it I could see the possibility. |
see this:
ultima22689 wrote: | If you saw the reasoning then you wouldn't have posted. |
I read the whole thread, thanks. And I still disagree with you. Imagine that!
Thanks for the clarification, Frankto. |
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ultima22689 Kage
Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 285
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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Frankto wrote: | As a rule, I avoid giving the same ability score both offensive and defensive advantages. |
Ah, I can see that and that sheds a lot more perspective on the reasoning for me. Makes sense. |
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