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Dairius_Chi
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:05 am    Post subject: My opinion Reply with quote

they shouldve just skipped 4th ed and gone to 5th, there i said it
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree'd
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a pretty incredible edition when you start to delve deeper into it. The only downside I can see so far is that the class abilities are very streamlined and linear. But on the GM's side... it's fantastic.

Also magic items. But that's another story altogether.
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Shun
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's easy (and as stated above) more streamlined which is great for the combat flow of D&D. It's fun though once you get into it.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have the DMG 2, skip to page 136 and read that. Page 144-145 especially is neat.
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ultima22689
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get it. I've been playing 3.5 for a few years and despite the complexity of it I really have a hard time understanding 4th edition.
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Chaos4knuckles
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me its to easy, which I find boring. (yes, if something is easy to me , I dislike it, its the way my mind works)
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You people is crazy!

I love 4th edition. And I'm of the personal opinion that at least 25% of the people that don't like 4th don't like it just because it's not like 3rd.

Guess what, TOUGH.

4th Edition is a great game system that takes the idea of the D&D RPG and makes it easier to play, quicker to play, and less 'let me check that one book for that one rule I think there is'. The system was designed to make combat easier, classes more balanced, and to give everyone a similar fighting chance.

I think they succeeded at this very, very well. I like 3.0 and 3.5, I think they're great. But I also think they're cluttered, hopelessly complicated, and the umpteen gazillion books that were added to it contain so many broken rules and contradictions that, as a GM, it's almost impossible to block out broken-ness from your games. And that's a sad thing.

4e might, in the long run, contain some brokenness as well, but because of the way they designed classes and powers to work, it's highly unlikely that this will happen.

Instead of generically whining in all directions that they should just stop with 4e, how about an intelligent discussion about the merits of the system, and which parts of it you think are detrimental to the system?

and ultima: Really? I can't understand how you could possibly get 3.5e and not understand 4e. That just blows my mind. In a bad way.
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Dairius_Chi
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not dislike 4th edition because it isnt 3rd, and honestly, if ONLY 25% dont like it cuz of their fanboyism thats pretty good, you know how many people liked ff12 just because it was another ff? too many, thats how many

and personnaly, i think 5th edition would be awesome because i dont know what it is yet, so i shall wait and be probably disappointed back into using pathfinder in a few years or so
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4th edition... is extremely boring.

It's very much less open-ended as far as classes go. Every rogue is going to have the same stats and follow the same progression because optimization is clear to see and follow. For the sake of balance, there are too many similarities in the characters and things that usually define you, like feats and skills, really matter very little in the long run.

If you wanna say it's funner b/c it's faster, then... well go ahead. I play 3.5 with people that have a near-encyclopedic knowledge of the rules... any discussion of what a rule says usually takes 5 seconds to resolve. I can't remember the last time I had a problem with pacing of the game due to an uncertain rule. I'll agree, 4e is much easier for a new person to just pick up and play, but for me, I would never want to play it.

Also, what GM has trouble stopping brokenness? You just say "no".
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirShadow wrote:
4th edition... is extremely boring.

It's very much less open-ended as far as classes go. Every rogue is going to have the same stats and follow the same progression because optimization is clear to see and follow. For the sake of balance, there are too many similarities in the characters and things that usually define you, like feats and skills, really matter very little in the long run.

If you wanna say it's funner b/c it's faster, then... well go ahead. I play 3.5 with people that have a near-encyclopedic knowledge of the rules... any discussion of what a rule says usually takes 5 seconds to resolve. I can't remember the last time I had a problem with pacing of the game due to an uncertain rule. I'll agree, 4e is much easier for a new person to just pick up and play, but for me, I would never want to play it.

Also, what GM has trouble stopping brokenness? You just say "no".


Yes, except 99.5% of all people playing D&D, including GMs, do not have encyclopedic knowledge of the rules and do not feel like restricting players too much in their choices.

And, in my opinion, classes are not very close-ended. Have you ever *seen* D&D 3.0 after a year? It's not like there were the tons of expansion books with added classes, feats, rules and spells. 4e is growing, and I don't think every class is the same.
With Martial Power 1 and Martial Power 2, there are plenty of ranger options and opportunities to get to. And plenty of powers to choose from.

Because the 3e and 3.5e fighter and ranger were *so* friggin exciting with their myriad of combat options. Oh, wait...
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirShadow wrote:
Also, what GM has trouble stopping brokenness? You just say "no".


The ones who have never had to deal with a mismatched party.


Nobody's arguing that it isn't linear. The fact is that it is. But for all that it is linear, it's smooth and intuitive and easy to play. Moreover, it's easy to create an adventure on the fly because everything was simplified on the GM's side. It's also easy to create new monsters, because there is no waste at all in their entries.

Your argument is based on familiarity. Sure, playing with people who have vast knowledge of the rules is nice. But you know what, when I play 3.5 or d20 Modern or Naruto d20, I can't help but make my character completely broken without even realizing it or even trying.

4E is such a nice breath of fresh air that I can't help but want to play. It's good for me because that system is genuinely making me want to roleplay even more (something I am rather fond of, I admit) and roll play less.

The issues I have with the system are just so, so, so small in comparison. Stuff like magic item creations and frequency, and that some abilities are too easy to get rid of, like poison. But hey, knowing me, I'll make my own rules to remedy that and everything is going to be fine.
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ultima22689
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athildur wrote:
You people is crazy!

I love 4th edition. And I'm of the personal opinion that at least 25% of the people that don't like 4th don't like it just because it's not like 3rd.

Guess what, TOUGH.

4th Edition is a great game system that takes the idea of the D&D RPG and makes it easier to play, quicker to play, and less 'let me check that one book for that one rule I think there is'. The system was designed to make combat easier, classes more balanced, and to give everyone a similar fighting chance.

I think they succeeded at this very, very well. I like 3.0 and 3.5, I think they're great. But I also think they're cluttered, hopelessly complicated, and the umpteen gazillion books that were added to it contain so many broken rules and contradictions that, as a GM, it's almost impossible to block out broken-ness from your games. And that's a sad thing.

4e might, in the long run, contain some brokenness as well, but because of the way they designed classes and powers to work, it's highly unlikely that this will happen.

Instead of generically whining in all directions that they should just stop with 4e, how about an intelligent discussion about the merits of the system, and which parts of it you think are detrimental to the system?

and ultima: Really? I can't understand how you could possibly get 3.5e and not understand 4e. That just blows my mind. In a bad way.


Ha! Someone has been getting their daily dose of rant! Not there's anything wrong with that, does the mind good and it's always fun to read when someone intelligent decides to rant.

I KNOW!! I look at it and I can tell how streamlined it is and everything I just can't seem to get a grasp of it for some reason, I've always been like that though with everything. According to my professors I write excellent papers but I don't know/can't remember the meanings of proverbs and stuff like that and many other English terms but I still manage to write some of the best papers in the class while others that know all that stuff half the time write terrible papers. I think my brain is square or something, there are a bunch of little oddities about it that equate to smart and stupid at the same time.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ultima22689 wrote:
Ha! Someone has been getting their daily dose of rant! Not there's anything wrong with that, does the mind good and it's always fun to read when someone intelligent decides to rant.

I KNOW!! I look at it and I can tell how streamlined it is and everything I just can't seem to get a grasp of it for some reason, I've always been like that though with everything. According to my professors I write excellent papers but I don't know/can't remember the meanings of proverbs and stuff like that and many other English terms but I still manage to write some of the best papers in the class while others that know all that stuff half the time write terrible papers. I think my brain is square or something, there are a bunch of little oddities about it that equate to smart and stupid at the same time.


Ha, I could keep that up for a long, long time :p.

Your brain is weird :p. But that's cool Smile. The key to learning games is playing them, anyways. Whenever anyone here gets a 4e game going on a PbP, I'd love to join.
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Naruto20D20
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally think that 4E is awesome, but it seems all the reasons I could give have already been mentioned. As such, I'll just nod in approval.

If anyone wanted to play a pretty good 4e adventure path, try out Scales of War (published by Wizards in the Dungeon magazine). The path it gives you is pretty damn good, and it even gives you ideas for side quests in case your party doesn't want to follow the path completely (IE, they help you not to rail road, which I suppose is common on these preset adventures).
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Dairius_Chi
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well...here's how i learned i didn't like 4th edition

i played it first, and it seemed really cool...then i found 3.5, end of story

i also have a near encyclopedic knowledge of dnd, i even subconsciously memorized what page numbers different spell letters started at because my pdf didnt have the find function (cant highlight writing, its like pictures) and teh only parts that still confuse me are things like grapple and other combat maneuvers(by pathfinder name) such as trip disarm etc

anyways...i hate ranting because i make walsl of text, very little punctuation and proper spelling, makes me feel stupid...but yeah, i dont like 4th edition because even though it was what i started with, 3.5 was just...better
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a player, I hate how it forces the idea of linear playing on someone. It's like they sterilized most of the creativity in combining character ideas into something that will make the other player's jaws drop. It lacks a certain soul to the game, that you can find elsewhere without investing another thousand dollars in books.

As a DM, it's easier to run without digging through the core books for an odd ruling, or having the rewrite the entire campaign layout because a player decided to ressurect a vital npc.

They took out the soul of the game to make it easier for DM's to run. Essentialy, WotC made dungeons and dragons into roleplaying communism. The only thing is, we have yet to see whether this edition implodes on itself such as Russia, or is able to adapt and change such as China.
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<_< I'd also like to add that another reason I hate this edition is b/c it ruined Faerun.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirShadow wrote:
<_< I'd also like to add that another reason I hate this edition is b/c it ruined Faerun.


you Shadow have my approval, not that my approval matters since this is my first post on the boards. They ruined Faerun bad and it made me very angry.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

(no, really, that's about all I can say to that)
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sry I am (was) a devout reader of Forgotten Realms?
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Shun
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

next thing you'll tell me is you're a big fan of drizzt and played a good drow at some point of time.. who (hopefully not) dual weilded scimitars and also took the ranger class with a panther familiar... Evil or Very Mad
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drizzt was good in the first two books (somewhat in the third). After that...


He killed Zaknafein, both by proxy and literally! Jerk.
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're asking if I read R. A. Salvatore's books? Yea. He's the reason I got into Forgotten Realms. I read his Star Wars books and then noticed he wrote other stuff.

But no, I never played a Drow... it's such a terrible race from a mechanics stand-point.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:42 pm    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

As for the "edition war" that's been going on since time immemorial, I always wondered why people can't agree on the fact that some people will like it and some other people won't.

It feels like a "my dad is stronger than your dad" contest, to be honest.

I like the 4th and there are some good points in 3.5 too.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Variety being the main good point. And what a good point it is...
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Geomancer
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have anything against 4th, really. It is just too... simple. Call me a masochist but I love going through all these books, looking for new things to do. Plus the fact that I download the books because I'm not a millionaire and don't have the money to buy them all makes my choice easier.

My biggest complaint is their version of the warforged. I loved all their immunities, that was the reason I played them. But in 4th ed, they seem to have lost most of them.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geomancer wrote:
I don't have anything against 4th, really. It is just too... simple. Call me a masochist but I love going through all these books, looking for new things to do. Plus the fact that I download the books because I'm not a millionaire and don't have the money to buy them all makes my choice easier.

My biggest complaint is their version of the warforged. I loved all their immunities, that was the reason I played them. But in 4th ed, they seem to have lost most of them.


Could it *possibly* be because those immunities made them ridiculously powerful? No, probably not.

And still, they don't really need sleep, and even those 4 hours a day they are completely aware of everything. That's pretty damn good.

And, SirShadow, I'm sorry that the people who ponder over this day and night did not make the changes you find most appealing.
4th edition is like spring cleaning through D&D. They used the overhaul of the entire game system and reflected it by creating circumstances in the game world that reflect it.

It's like saying you hate Harry Potter because Dumbledore dies.

And, judging a game system by what they did with the story is a bit ridiculous. I understand the two are linked, but in a game where a GM can basically make his own rules and determine his own world, it's not that big of a deal.

You basically hate the system for advancing the world in a direction you don't like. That's...really a great reason not to like a game system.


But, whatever. I don't think people liked 3e that much at first either. ADND was such a hoot (*cough*). I've played 3e and 3.5e for a long time, and I can honestly say I still don't prefer it over 4th. Even though it has a lot more options and is less 'linear' (whatever that means).
For once in my life, I'm actually looking forward to playing rangers in D&D. I wouldn't ever have touched rangers, fighters (and possibly rogues) with a 10-ft. pole in 3.5e because they were boring as *censored*.

Just because you have a gazillion feats to choose from doesn't automatically make them more appealing.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay so my overall opinion of 4e Vs 3e.

Well when I first played D&D 3e I felt that it was interesting but had about 80 pages of rules that were just annoying but what always brought me back was that Each class had a different feel all together. When I play 4e I feel more like its all one angry blob of the same.

However, I also love Running 4e. Its far more streamlined. I would personally perfer it to make the classes not all be based on the exact same chart of progression but hey. Tis life.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Killercloud wrote:
Okay so my overall opinion of 4e Vs 3e.

Well when I first played D&D 3e I felt that it was interesting but had about 80 pages of rules that were just annoying but what always brought me back was that Each class had a different feel all together. When I play 4e I feel more like its all one angry blob of the same.

However, I also love Running 4e. Its far more streamlined. I would personally perfer it to make the classes not all be based on the exact same chart of progression but hey. Tis life.


Aye.

At the same time, I prefer to judge games by what they do vs. what they were trying to do (i.e. what they promise).
4e promises simple, streamlined gaming that makes combat easier, rules less of an obstruction, and attempts to make the game easier overall by making the classes similar in setup and abilities.
Using that setup also provided well-needed balance that 3e sorely lacked. And it's unlikely that 4e will really get horrible over-/underpower spikes if they maintain that class setup.

It's not perfect, but what is?
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