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Felix_Zyphros
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or you can be a wizard and make heads pop at 12th level with a single save. And at 17th level, you can simply use Wish to level a continent.

The biggest issue for a warblade is lack of range. Yes, there's lightning throw, but that's a limited range attack and you would need to take the manuever. To counter the possible counter argument of 'use an item that gives you flying', you have the issue of dispell, greater dispell, and disjunction. The other big weakness if the reliance upon a weapon. With the above combo you mentioned, you are blowing 200k of gold on a single weapon. The wizard can use disintegrate to reduce it to slag in one shot.

Warblades are strong, yes. The strongest full class melee'rs. But that isn't saying much when wizards can 'tell the laws of physics to shut up and sit down'.
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And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
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? Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Dune

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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, but Wish in 3.5 is extremely limited. Miracle, perhaps, if the GM wants to stack the deck for the cleric. But otherwise, when the warblade can have a magic item of quickened dimension door and overland flight at will, range is a nonissue. Anyone can make a saving throw, but only very few things can stop a determined meleeist from taking their heads off.
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blueskies05
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've brushed up on this argument and I have to say it seems like this point has yet to be addressed extensively:

Perhaps 4th Ed was made with objective fun in mind? To bring new people who aren't within the hardcore 3-3.5 DnD world? The guy who dislikes "nerd shit" but digs tactical games and gets into the teamplay and tactical functions of 4th Ed. The girl who falls in love with the critters in WoW and decides to give this "Dungeons and Dragons" thing a try.

4th Ed wasn't about sinking further into a sub-demographic, its about liberating DnD from a future where it spirals downward into a tiny sub-culture, failing to adapt to the needs, and appeal to the market, of a new and still changing gaming atmosphere. Ballsy move on behalf of WotC and I applaud them for it.

I think you will see a ton of the hardcore 3rd Ed'ers sticking in their comfort zone (hence why most 4th ed groups, early on, contain more than a single striker).

While I agree with Frankto (the Items system needs a pinch of tweaking) I think this is a very solid product and I agree with Athildur: It's deliciously simple and the hp progression makes much more sense.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felix_Zyphros wrote:
Character's that rely on melee will never, without sever munchinkising, ever come close to a decently built caster.

Yes, 4e balanced that out, but they did it by making the line that seperated caster from warrior negligable. There are other ways to go about evening them out.


To repudiate an old argument:

Bullcrap. Fighters don't have a caster's range, AoE or general controlling powers.

Just because everyone has powers that can deal more than just weapon damage doesn't automatically mean everything is the same.

If you need actual numbers and page formats to show you difference in classes, you're hardly a very good RPG player.


And this also means you find it bullshit for the fighter to actually get attacks with special effects etc. without first spending a shitload of spells and multiclassing into some obscure classes to get interesting abilities.
Obscure classes which are often poorly balanced, because most things after 3.5e core books (maybe stuff like Song and Silence etc. too) just spiralled out of control, throwing balance out the window because people just want 'cool'.

Resulting in games where one, as a serious player, might as well create a level 1 commoner little girl for all the damage he's doing when compared to that guy in the group that uses these addition books with strange multiclass builds.


Just because every class has powers that essentially work in the same way, doesn't make every class the same. Range, possible effects, elemental damage, area attacks, not to mention flavor. They are all very different between the classes.


Do you have *better* ideas on how to balance fighters, if not giving them access to some unique abilities and attacks that finally make them fun to play right from the get-go, without having to look up 15 books on classes that might be fun to do or have cool abilities that fit your fighter plan.

Etc and so on.



But maybe I'm not a 'true' D&D player. I always made characters to be fun, taking cool builds that seemed unusual and original. So what if the damage potential isn't the best. That's not what the game is about.
And, like it has been said, D&D before 4e just spiralled out of control into a more and more obsessive group of gamers determined to find the better combination of classes, feats and items to deal retarded amounts of damage in a single round.

Making it impossible for a GM or a fellow non-nutcase player to actually enjoy the game.

4e put this game back on track. Clear rules. Balanced classes. All-around improvements.

I'm sorry, but I do not find a carreer of power-gaming and rulesmongering very appetizing. And that's what 3.5e was mostly about. Only a few really know all the rules. Because there are too many, counting every book out there you might be using. There's a decently good reason I stopped playing 3/3.5e, but 4e has brought life back into my D&D experience. Thankfully.

The format also basically implies balance. Classes don't get a whole lot of basic abilities. And for every class, powers can easily be checked against powers of an equal tier/level. Making it quick and easy to check if something is OP or not.


The only thing I really dislike is how much effort is required to create a homebrew class. The amount of power-making you need is mind-boggling, making it unlikely for anyone to make very many classes on their own.
At least in D&D 3.5, I could make up a new class within a week, getting it ready in plenty of time before we actually began a game after the GM asked us to join.
I will miss that. But for the moment I'm not going to need it. Plenty of cool stuff to scout out for now Smile.
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Felix_Zyphros
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, what?
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I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
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? Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Dune

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Killercloud
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athildur wrote:


Resulting in games where one, as a serious player, might as well create a level 1 commoner little girl for all the damage he's doing when compared to that guy in the group that uses these addition books with strange multiclass builds.


Sorry. Had to step in here. as a person who runs 3.0-3.5 That is the DM's fault. In my world, I have list of allowed Prestige Classes. I only allow the Tome of Battle when I think its world appropriate.
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree'd I hear this complaint all the time, and I just have to say that it's really the GM's fault that kind of thing happens. In my games, classes have to make sense. You can't suddenly multiclass into something if nothing in the game has occured to make that option available to you--especially since a ton of prestige classes are so fluff-heavy.
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Felix_Zyphros
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed. My view of the DM is that he's both narrator and referee; that is, he makes sure the players don't do crazy stuff such as make absurdly broken characters, as well as telling the story of the party's adventure.

Which goes back to the statement- 4e is made for DMs, 30-3.5e is made for players.

I''ll wait for 5e, which will either be made for both or neither.
_________________
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

? Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Dune

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Athildur
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that there even is a need for GMs to ban about 60-75% of all classes out there because they could be abused for power-gaming just goes to show how warped the 3/3.5e universe became.

And, tbh, as a GM, It's difficult to ban most books if people really want to use them, because in the end you still want to have a fun game, and so do your players. Placing heavy restrictions on everything just puts a damper on the fun.
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't ban books, I just don't let people combine classes that don't make sense just so they can powergame.
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Ketsukage
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirShadow wrote:
I don't ban books, I just don't let people combine classes that don't make sense just so they can powergame.


Same here. I also do not feel the need to learn all the rules. I'm the GM, so what I decide to be the rules is the reality I build for my players. I don't allow rules lawyering anymore than I allow broken character to dominate a game. Some restrictions may be considered harsh for some, but to my mind powergaming and rules lawyering only detract from the fun for everyone but the culprit. This, to me, is a huge part of the DM's job and I feel that a good DM should have no difficulty keeping a game balanced and fun for all.

What I dislike the most in 4e, I guess, is that monsters no longer follow the same rules as characters. This seems to limit what's possible in a game and makes the prospect of running a Planescape campaign a daunting task indeed. I'll probably run a campaign in 4e again at some point this year because I haven't given the game it's fair chance and I'm wanting to see a player fulfill his epic destiny, but I'm not in a big hurry to make that happen.
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Felix_Zyphros
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athildur wrote:
The fact that there even is a need for GMs to ban about 60-75% of all classes out there because they could be abused for power-gaming just goes to show how warped the 3/3.5e universe became.


You can't say there's things that haven't been banned from 4e. Like certain cheesy feats, or combinations of powers.

Every game system, not matter how much the creators of said system try to balance it, will have certain combinations and certain abilities that can break the game. I'm sure Frankto can atest to that.

From my perspective, and I apologize if I'm missing your point, you seem to be saying that 4e is infalible and was made perfectly balanced. That no matter what kind of a character someone has, they'll never feel like they are being left out of the fun due to an underwhelming character build.

Think of it this way. Would you rather have the hero who doesn't stand out from the average joe with the exception of calling himself a hero, or the one who everyone knows is a hero because he can slice through steel, take down a dozen armed men in a single stroke, and warp reality itself?

I'm not saying that having a strong crunch of your character is key to making a good character. I'm seeing I don't see much fun in playing a character who is barely different from anyone else in the setting. (might need to word that better.....) I'm one of the worst people you can find for opt'ing a character, because I make mine to thrive on the Rule of Cool. I'll swap out feats and abilities that might make an otherwise game breaker into something a bit less powerfull, but able to do crazier stuff.
_________________
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

? Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Dune

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Ketsukage
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Felix. The Rule of Cool is important.
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Shun
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athildur wrote:
The fact that there even is a need for GMs to ban about 60-75% of all classes out there because they could be abused for power-gaming just goes to show how warped the 3/3.5e universe became.


The problem with that issue, is about 80% of the time it's whiny players that want to keep their class at the top (usually mage or fighter type) so they feel the need to lower the opposite classes overall potential. I shit you not, do a search on wizards or otehr RP boards and you'll get debate after debate on how to weaken a particular class because it's too powerful for some dumb reason that's easily countered or possibly the only ability the class has worth getting and only gets it at level 20.

I'm not saying that's the debate here, I just felt it was worth pointing out. Wink
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Felix_Zyphros
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most munchkin builds take 20 levels to make. I'd rather be doing crazy stuff right off the bat.


Then again, maybe that's why I've gotten into Exalted...
_________________
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

? Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Dune

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Athildur
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felix_Zyphros wrote:
From my perspective, and I apologize if I'm missing your point, you seem to be saying that 4e is infalible and was made perfectly balanced. That no matter what kind of a character someone has, they'll never feel like they are being left out of the fun due to an underwhelming character build.

Think of it this way. Would you rather have the hero who doesn't stand out from the average joe with the exception of calling himself a hero, or the one who everyone knows is a hero because he can slice through steel, take down a dozen armed men in a single stroke, and warp reality itself


I'm not saying 4e is infallible. I'm saying it's basic premise and way of making classes makes it intrinsically easier to balance, and makes it easier to spot imbalance without having to test much.

I have to say, I haven't seen anything banned from 4e yet in any games I've played.

And, you keep presuming that everyone in 4e is the same, when I've already told you this is not the case. It's just you being stubborn with the presumption that since everyone has 'powers', everyone must therefor be the same and non-exceptional.
That's simple short-sightedness and proves you're not willing to go to very much effort to see that there are differences between each class.

What you're basically saying is that you don't like 4e because it doesn't make you feel like some god-like being of awesome-o power that can decimate cities with the swish of a hand. Well, tough.
I won't deny that having a character that's able to do things like that can be fun, but it's ludicrous. It comes to the point where time stop becomes the go-to fix it for everything, a few well-placed spells decimating whatever opposition you have, or at least getting them down so far it's easy to finish them off.

Like Frankto said. It takes effort to kill a man. No matter what you learn, this remains true. I find 4e reflects this very well. You may argue these are fantasy games and realism shouldn't be much of a focal point, but for me it very much is, and that's what makes 4e a lot more enjoyable.

Plus, of course, items do play a greater role in 4e, since many magic items have powers that can be used, rather than provide static bonuses like many magic items in 4e (with the exception of staves, wands, rings etc). With the vast number of available items, it makes costumization very easy, although perhaps a bit time-consuming, since there's a lot of them to choose from...
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Felix_Zyphros
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athildur wrote:

What you're basically saying is that you don't like 4e because it doesn't make you feel like some god-like being of awesome-o power that can decimate cities with the swish of a hand.


That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I like to play character that can do unusual stuff, stuff that very few others in the group might do.

Like the otherday, a warblade of mine 'knocked' on an adamantine door with a manuever (forgot the specific one) and ko'd the caster that was standing behind it.

It's less about the power, more about the creative stuff that can be done/ For 4e, there's just nothing there for me. It just feels too bland, no matter how many times I try and play it. One striker is the same as another, one defender is the same as another. The only differences, to me, are the fluff added and maybe one or two mechanical things.
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I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

? Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Dune

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Frankto
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As is, unfortunately, the same with 3.5. The primary difference here is imagination. Powers are very similar, yes, but class features are less so. If you want your character to flatten a caster with an adamantine door and your GM tells you that the rules won't allow you to do that, then consider gouging out his eyes.

In fact, in the first few pages of the DMG, it explains to you that you need to make your own rules at times and tells you precisely how to do so. This isn't specifically an argument for 4E, but in every system, no matter what the type, the sky is always the limit. If the book doesn't tell you precisely how to do something and you let that stop you, consider playing World of Warcraft instead.

The rules of D&D (any edition), d20 Modern, and especially Naruto d20 are much like the pirate's code: more like guidelines.
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Shun
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the role players creedo. Cool
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Felix_Zyphros
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the roleplay creedo was: Go beyond the impossible and kick reason to the curb!"

And I believe level 30 is the limit in 4e, actualy.[/quote]
_________________
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

? Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Dune

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Athildur
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are no rules for characters above level 30, if that's what you mean.

Yet.

At level 30 you're already about as close to a (semi/quasi)deity as one gets. Going beyond that would be an entirely new tier of play. Something that might go very differently. Who knows, perhaps an epic level handbook is un the making, or they are attempting to get it started.

Or maybe not. There's no need for infinite levels. Plenty of ways GMs can keep a game going even if you've reached the 'level cap'.
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Felix_Zyphros
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I forgot to turn the sarcasm tags on. Seems to happen alot.
_________________
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

? Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Dune

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blueskies05
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athildur wrote:
There are no rules for characters above level 30, if that's what you mean.

Yet.

At level 30 you're already about as close to a (semi/quasi)deity as one gets. Going beyond that would be an entirely new tier of play. Something that might go very differently. Who knows, perhaps an epic level handbook is un the making, or they are attempting to get it started.

Or maybe not. There's no need for infinite levels. Plenty of ways GMs can keep a game going even if you've reached the 'level cap'.


Minor side note:

I'm playing a Tiefling Infernal Pact Warlock (Multi into Rogue) who functions as the Naval Terror, the Dread Pirate. My ultimate goal, amongst a myriad of schemes, is to become an Arch Lich. I paragon'd into a GM custom class which is a combination of Life Stealer and Knight Commander. An Infernal Dread Pirate class.

BRAVADO ALL THE WAY!
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Felix_Zyphros
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So... you're Barbossa from the Pirates of the Caribbean movies?
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I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

? Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Dune

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blueskies05
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felix_Zyphros wrote:
So... you're Barbossa from the Pirates of the Caribbean movies?


Nah, more like a tiefling spy/Warlock turned entrepeneur.
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ZeronosVega
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Figured I'd give my two cents after now playing a 4e game. Personally, I enjoy the system more than I do 3.5e ONLY when it applies to a true D&D game. I'm not a huge D&D person, as I would rather play games such as Naruto d20, Mutants & Masterminds, etc. Basically, the games which have spun off of the d20 system.

My initial experience with D&D did not end well. However, my 4e experience has been fun, as I really only participate because a majority of my d20 friends/players also participate in D&D. So for me, I very much prefer the 4e system when in a D&D campaign. It makes things quicker, easier to understand and the party actually have to work together unlike my 3.5 campaign.
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streearahi
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this would be a ridiculous project to take under, but has anyone ever thought of taking up a conversion for Naruto, it wouldn't be hard, but considering the way powers work in 4e it'd be amazing. I've put a lot of thought into it, but I don't know if theres a new open license for 4e or not. Think about it this way, seperate classes (taijutsu master, nin master, with lots of class option like nin master fire specialization at 1st, and then a new one so many levels or by feats etc), add way more power allowances, and convert some techniques to rituals. With the way they do class options you could write up anything, and it would probably make combat a shit ton faster. To give you a for instance Lets say you have a Utility power called Kawarimi No Jutsu, the way I'd see it working is when someone runs up to attack, as an immediate reaction you can shift one square to avoid, or maybe make the attacker roll twice and set the lower of his two attack as his attack, with higher specialization you could shift multiple sqs or some set up like that. You could base the classes a little looser to almost work like your class decides quite a few things like close range or long range abilities, and special powers only for that class, but you get a broader selection of powers, not actually set to the class but broadened to other things like Elemental Affinities and just common knowledge powers like Tadayou, Kawarimi, and Bunshin Jutsu, really just set up for any power that any ninja would know. This is just a suggestion, and I don't expect much of a positive answer, but I could see myself putting work into something like that. I know the 4e setting like the back of my hand, and already have one Homebrew system under my belt. So let me know whatcha guys think. Thanks
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Naruto20D20
Demon Carrier


Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 666
Location: Georgia.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can expect there to be little support for overhauling Naruto d20 into a 4E clone. It'd be an interesting project, but probably too time consuming for little gain. Start a thread about it, maybe you can find a few helping hands. Expect to do most of the work though.

Speaking of 4E... stopped playing Scales of War at level 19 due to my players scattering to the wind for college. Fun though. I don't exactly like the feeling that the characters won't die unless I send EVERYTHING at them -- I love that "oh god, will we make it?" tension. So I ended up doubling NPC damage and halfing enemy HP (sort of like what they did to fix Solo monsters). Fun times, worked out alright.

A few of my players enjoyed the feeling that they shouldn't worry about dying around every corner. Especially at low level. Ran Age of Worms 3.5 for the second time today and they died in the same spot at level 3. Terrible. Terrible.

On a lighter note: play Dark Heresy. It's abso-fucking-lutely amazing. Call of Cthulu meets RIGHTEOUS SPACE FRONTIER.
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Felix_Zyphros
Shinobigami


Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 1049
Location: Village Hidden in the Night

PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should play Exalted. Warhammer 40k meets the Ancient Pantheons. On crack. While making love to Toppa Tengen Gurren Lagan. While Queen's Prince's of the Universe is playing in the background.
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Fear is the mind-killer.
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Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

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Athildur
Sexually progressive Valkyrie


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 3197
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felix_Zyphros wrote:
You should play Exalted. Warhammer 40k meets the Ancient Pantheons. On crack. While making love to Toppa Tengen Gurren Lagan. While Queen's Prince's of the Universe is playing in the background.


*cough* fanboy.

I think a 4e version of naruto would be cool. But I also think working on it would be an insult to what we have here. I doubt it would be as good as narutoD20 and I actually like playing ND20 a lot.

I'd gladly offer some assistance in small ways like proofreading, but beyond that I'd have to decline, for the time being.
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