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Help with ECLs

 
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:26 pm    Post subject: Help with ECLs Reply with quote

Has anyone else noticed that getting an ECL (even a +1) seems to be more debilitating than in D&D, where if you were ECL, you actually were on par with level 5 characters? I mean, honestly, a level 4 ECL 5 character doesn't even measure up to a level 5 (no ECL) character, they can't even use Kawarimi or Shundou unless their levels equals the CR (which in the case of this it is equal to character level, or character level -1 for ordinaries) and an ECl of 2 or 3 is near impossible to work with, unless you start out at like level 12 (ECL 15) or level 13 (ECL 15) depending on the ECL. So, my question is, has anyone come up with a house rule that actually makes you at least on par with the level your ECL reflects? Thanks in advance.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, because I'm sure having the Sharingan, Byakugan, Keirigan, and any other bloodline, really, isn't worth the LA.

PROTIP: Use level-independant experience.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I wasn't speaking about bloodlines. Just ECL in general, bloodlines actually give beneficial bonuses that make combat easier. Certain templates aren't even worth the ECL even with substantial ability score increases, you still fall way behind the other players. At least with bloodlines, the ECL is gradual, but for templates you get the full ECL right off the bat, and yet somehow end up weaker. I'm not saying it's your fault, I'm just saying high ECLs tend to hurt players more than the benefits help (excluding bloodlines, which offer tons of beneficial effects to make up for lost levels)


Best example would be in one game someone had an ECL from a template, the rest of us were fine we could use avoidance abilities to dodge attacks, this guy by round 5 was at -3 we barely saved him by the time it was over he was at -8. Anyway, I was just asking if someone had house rule for ECL, was in no way saying I wanted it changed, altered, or anything of the sort.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, you're going to need to be more specific. And you're also going to need to be a lot less reliant on kawarimi.



What template?
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ungodly Descendance ECL +4 he had higher stats than us, but we all out performed him due to the gap of 4 levels. Well, had he been on our level (in terms of class levels) he'd have tore those enemies up, but not having those 4 class levels really hurt.

That fast healing 5 didn't help him at all. Also, as for level independent experience, isn't it up to the GM whether that gets used?

But, I'll try suggesting level independent experience to my GM, he's starting up a game eventually.
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Dairius_Chi
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fast healing works when unconscious...and would stop him from bleeding out, so unless enemies were beating his unconscious body to -8, GM might not have been ruling fast healing right...
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's correct.

Fast Healing (Ex): The creature regains hit points at an exceptionally fast rate, usually 1 or more hit points per round. Fast healing stops working when a creature is reduced to ?10 hp or fewer. Except as noted here, fast healing works just like natural healing.
Fast healing doesn?t provide any benefit against attack forms that don?t deal hit point damage. Fast healing also doesn?t restore hit points lost to starvation, thirst, or suffocation, and it doesn?t allow a creature to regrow or reattach severed body parts.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, guess he wasn't using it right. Still, as soon as he got back up he'd have been smacked back down again. They were hitting me (with my 35 defense) fairly consistently, and I had the highest defense of the party. Not to mention, the GM kept getting lucky saving throws, so our Ninjutsu spammer's attacks were doing nothing and the front-liner got KO'd and nearly killed due to always getting hit for nearly max damage (seems to be a common occurrence) Mind you, me and our thrown weapons master were kicking butt (gotta love being a blinkstrike who uses Iaijutsu)
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Dairius_Chi
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Play dead?

If he was standing and pretended to die i'd call it a bluff check, but if he's down, then wakes up simple as not moving
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, ECL's really suck. You can't empower techniques as high, you don't get the stats, you don't get HD, and you don't get to learn as high level techniques...

However, the abilities you get from bloodlines are usually "unique" and give your character more options... and you get to create special jutsus based on the bloodline.

But yea... ECL's suck... any character who's focus is Ninjutsu should NEVER get an ECL it's in a bloodline or template that REALLY boosts Ninjutsu techniques.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not nearly so bad. Protip: Technique Focus eliminates +1 LA.
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And genius nin helps the level you can learn. But Major bloodlines still hurt.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major bloodlines are fine, as you don't get that +3 LA right off the bat, never seen anyone have an issue with a major bloodline. It's just templates. Well, bluff isn't always a class skill, and only so few people ever use the skill (I've put ranks in it, only to never have the opportunity to use it, nor was there even a situation to use it) personally, i think if you've got bluff, you should have ranks in it (if it benefits the build, which it always does if I've got it as a class skill) just rarely (in any game I've been in) are a lot of skill checks called for (other than spot, listen, search etc etc)
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Dairius_Chi
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

most skill checks aren't "called for" and are rather, invoked by the players...spot and listen happen to be the most common reactive skills
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, rarely were my chosen skill set needed (this was just seemed to be a kick in the door and fight type, but none of us knew that till we got there) I'd pretty much made a Genjutsu specialist, who liked toying with people (with and without the use of Genjutsu) but none of my social skills were ever needed, there was no bluffing the Chuunin that we were not spies, no diplomacy to make NPCs like me my bluff was insane because of my charismatic hero levels (had both charm men and charm women) among other charismatic hero talents for talking my way out of things. I ended up casting a Genjutsu on them, and hitting them for a Coup de Grace. Not exactly the route the character was meant for, when the situation could've been solved with less violent means (but I guess the setting wasn't meant for it) though typically, that's how a lot of ND20 games go. Very few (if any) chances to use social skills.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure how this relates to the thread, but it's also the job of the GM to challenge the PCs in areas they can and want to be challenged.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, sorry of the off-topic, someone mentioned bluff check a few posts back >.>
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Dairius_Chi
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

for playing dead >.> since you said the fast healing ungodly descendant would have been knocked down for standing...I've had players "play dead" before...which would be a bluff check

sorry for off-topic, merely explaining mention of bluff
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navynewk
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The D&D books do have a way to reduce an ECL if you really want to. The rules are found in the Unearthed Arcana book, right before the bloodline section in it. Basically at certain points you give up experience to reduce your ECL by 1 every time all the way until you no longer have an ECL. Hope that helps a bit.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, it would help, but you wont find many GMs that'll allow that.
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navynewk
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not too sure about that myself. I agree it is up to each individual GM to decide. I don't think that it's a bad system, depending on your level adjustment the benefits of this system may vary. Higher ECL adjustments will benefit more then lower ones. The example in the book says that a level adjustment of +2 using this system will have to earn a total of 206,000 xp to hit level 20, while to hit 20 without the system they will have to earn 231,000 xp. The normal to hit 20 is 190,000 xp.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, nice system for ECLs, but it can be quite impacting, as ECLs are the only draw backs templates and bloodlines have (though for templates, i still say any higher than a +2 ECL kinda makes them not worth taking, except for NPC use)
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