Stupid stacking buffs are stupid

[keksmuzh]

As a disclaimer:
This is entirely theoretical. I do not expect any sane GM to allow this to run or any player who legitimately wants the game to be fun for everyone to use it. Though technically a GM could make this into a terrifying boss...

Stacking a ridiculous number of buffs in 1 turn:
Step 1: Make a build with 10 level of ninja scout for quicken technique. (minimum level 13). Fast 3/Ninja Scout 10 or something similar will get you there ASAP, level-wise.

Step 2: Cast a quickened physical clone technique (kage bunshin, mizu bunshin, etc). This takes your move action, and you only need one clone for this, though you can make more to help ensure success.

Step 3: Clones take their actions, performing the skill checks to achieve perfect stillness, gather nature energy, and form senjutsu chakra. Then dismiss the clones. This allows the character to activate Sage Mode without spending any additional actions.

Step 4: Unseal Speed and Strength Ranks (we will assume for the purposes of this exercise the character has 5 of each).

Step 5: Activate the 6th Hachimon Tonkou gate. While you are not allowed to quicken this technique (it is not a gen, nin, or cc tech), it is still only an attack action, assuming sufficient masteries.

Without any bloodlines and 2 feats, you get +20 to hit and +18 to unarmed melee damage before class levels and base stats, along with considerable damage soak and +8 to reflex saves. You also get 20 temporary chakra, 30 ft land speed increase, and +4 to initiative and many skill checks, not to mention the 2 chakra and 1 reserve every turn, all for the investment of 2 chakra (which is cancelled out by the gain from Gate 6), 6 senjutsu chakra, and 5 HP per turn. With enough masteries the biggest drawback, ability damage, becomes trivial after a full night's rest.

Remember, this is without BAB, without base stats, without anything other than pure buff. With a halfway decent Con score 5 HP and 6 sage chakra at lvl 13 is nothing. You do need 5 steps of mastery in sage mode, so again, this is hardly achievable in any reasonable campaign, but it is there and is interesting to look at nonetheless.

EDIT: Forgot to factor speed ranks into land speed increase. It's a 60 ft increase

[Frankto]

Step 2: You'll find that all techniques that produce a physical clone are a full-round action and can only be quickened to an attack action.

Step 3: You'll also find that clones can only gather nature energy, and that only nature energy is transferred to the character, who must spend another attack action to convert it to senjutsu chakra.

In effect, unless you have Heroic Surge, you're taking longer than you normally would, and paying more chakra than you need.

Step 5: A third attack action will bring you into your second or third round, depending on whether you have Heroic Surge or not. Meanwhile, you've effectively been standing still.
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[keksmuzh]

@Frankto:

Step 2: Incorrect. Quicken technique reduces the casting time by 2 steps, aka to a move action: "At 10th level, the Ninja Scout may, at the expenses of an action point, reduce the time it takes to perform a Chakra Control, Genjutsu or Ninjutsu technique by 2 categories: a full-round or full-attack action becomes a move action, and attack and move-equivalent action becomes a swift action. Techniques with a perform time of 1 minute or greater are not affected. In addition, using a quickened technique does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Step 3: This does work because of the following:
"A physical clone can also convert nature energy to senjutsu chakra, drawing from the character's chakra pool, provided that both are within 50 feet of one another. If the clone is dispelled within that same distance, lingering senjutsu chakra returns to the character."

[Karen]

Your arguing that sage content can break the game when GM's were warned by frankto that the book is dangerously strong? I'm sorry I just don't see the problem. I mean, the other two techs you mentioned are Kinjutsu no? Those techs don't just fall into player hands. I think the gates might not be though...

[keksmuzh]

I am not arguing anything. As I said, this is me messing with how many buffs a character can get stacked in a single turn. This is the ND20 epics section, trying to break things is half the fun! Whether sage mode should be balanced with the rest of the system or not is an entirely separate issue.

Also, I don't believe the Hachimon Tonkou techniques are technically listed as Kinjutsu (though by canon they almost certainly are).

[Infinitus]

[Karen]

[keksmuzh]

It's nothing more than a joke, no negativity intended.

[SjachIxen]

[Karen]

Lol joke passed over me...but seriously shut up my Gm frequents this site I don't want to fight something like that...

<.<

>.>

He's probably reading this right now...shhhh

[SjachIxen]

[Karen]

Well the Russ of my group (reference to another thread) likes to try and break the game so my GM is always looking for the next "world ender monster" to throw at him and, by proxy, me and another friend who like to make characters based on the fun of role playing, although I do enjoy specializing. His min/maxing is gonna get us killed. T_T

[Hito Hyuga]

[keksmuzh]

I feel bad for you if your GM decides to pull this on you. If you have enough room and have shunpo, you might be able to get away or hide in time. Of course then the non taijutsu spec characters die =P

What level is your game anyway if this is a legitimate boss to fight?

EDIT: There is also a second way to do this that doesn't require any quicken technique tricks, thus allowing for more flexibility in the build. For this, you simply give a character with the Ghastly Inheritance template the Hachimon Tonkou feat.

The additional benefit here is that Fast Heal 5 alleviates much of the damage from the gates, though you have a lower dmg per hit, which is made up for by the extra attack if you spend the AP to go into Kyuubi Manifestation and the use of natural weapons instead of just fists. The book doesn't specify the action type needed to activate blazing rage, so that one is up to the GM.

[wash17]

My counter to your build:

Make a character with 2 levels of negotiator, and then speck into single shot massive damage. Start talking to the combo blaster build. If they start combat, you have 1 shot during which they have no defenses up (including speed ranks), no dex bonus to defense, and you can get your sneak attack damage if any on the hit.

Alternatively, same 2 levels of negotiator, and any gen-Justus that will disable him, or attacks that disable his options, like ability or Chara damage.

As an amusing note on sage and demonic allowed in the same game: Get senjutsu Chara, use lay on hands to transfer said chacra into manifesting jinchuric, jinchuric is now suppressed, and may take cah damage depending on amount of chacra, and gm ruling. Cue awesome face.

This is also a counter build that is only useful in situations like this. you get your one shot, then you already used a bunch of chacra and are screwed if you missed.
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"so, you want the blessed thorium doors labeled containment, and you see now way this could go wrong?"

[keksmuzh]

Negotiator does some very weird and excellent things, though this does assume a 1 v 1 situation and allowing d20 modern classes into the game (though they are listed in the core nd20 book).

[Infinitus]

In some prior argument, Frankto said using modern classes in Nd20 is not a good idea.

Or should not be allowed.
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[keksmuzh]

Honestly I have to agree there. There are some really sketchy and possibly OP synergies between d20 modern and nd20 class abilities/techs.
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"No Hiruko, you can't fix people like you do for your puppets. When people fall apart they die."

[wash17]

True enough, this was also my first reaction, having some experience with both systems. Long and short was sucker punch him before he can power up. Clearly, this is the ninja way. Also examining the possibly of giveing sage chacra to other characters has always amused me, but that is another point.
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"so, you want the blessed thorium doors labeled containment, and you see now way this could go wrong?"

[SirShadow]

as soon as combat starts, speed ranks and strength ranks are a go, so he would have those defenses.

[keksmuzh]

The negotiator effectively gets a surprise round before main combat, so I don't know that spd/str ranks would activate until normal combat starts. This is part of why d20 modern and nd20 interact weirdly.
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"No Hiruko, you can't fix people like you do for your puppets. When people fall apart they die."

[wash17]

From the book:

Activation: During an encounter, or when a character is threatened or stressed, he must
choose to consciously suppress his Strength and Speed ranks to conserve energy, even
during a surprise round, otherwise the ability is automatically active. The opportunity
comes into play as soon as the character is no longer flat-footed: at the start of his turn, or
at the start of the battle following a surprise round taken by the character, even if he did
not win the initiative, as a free action. Activating a previously suppressed strength or
speed rank during an encounter, after the first round of combat, is a free action on the
character's turn.

in short, surprise rounds negate ranks if they are not up (and almost never are out of combat) for that one single round.
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"so, you want the blessed thorium doors labeled containment, and you see now way this could go wrong?"

[SirShadow]

no, you misunderstand.

During a surprise round, your speed ranks automatically activate by themselves even if you do not have an action in the surprise round. The opportunity it mentions is not the opportunity to activate them, but to suppress them again.

[wash17]

I believe that this is the option if you are an attacker during a surprise round, If you are not acting in the surprise round you are flat footed, and therefore cannot activate ranks.
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"so, you want the blessed thorium doors labeled containment, and you see now way this could go wrong?"

[SirShadow]

... what? There is nothing to stop you from having speed ranks when you are flat-footed... where are you getting this information from?

[wash17]

Ok, lets look at activation one more time, removing the first sentence-which is misleading, and mostly for effect-and highlighting my point.

Activation:
The opportunity
comes into play as soon as the character is no longer flat-footed: at the start of his turn, or
at the start of the battle FOLLOWING A SURPRISE ROUND taken by the character, even if he did
not win the initiative, as a free action. Activating a previously suppressed strength or
speed rank during an encounter, after the first round of combat, is a free action on the
character's turn


It is possible for a Character to retain ranks when flat footed if they were already active. After the surprise round is when those who did not get to act in it, get to activate previously dormant ranks if they chose. Walking around with ranks up is impractical because of Chara cost.

Plot based example: Sniper is completely hidden from target, and takes a bow shot at said target. The target, not expecting the attack, has his ranks suppressed before the fight begins. He only realizes the fight is under way after he gets hit, or as the case is, is missed by the first attack-which takes place in the surprise round. Now fully alert and no longer flat footed, he can activate or suppress speed/strength ranks as he likes, and can set levels of suppression/activity once each of his turns.

The wording is somewhat misleading in the basic game mechanics section because of that first sentence.

Uncanny dodge will allow you to keep your dex bonus, but will still be flat footed, and thus can't activate ranks till the surprise round ends.
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"so, you want the blessed thorium doors labeled containment, and you see now way this could go wrong?"

[keksmuzh]

@wash,

I agree with most of that, save for the last bit. Uncanny dodge may prevent the flat-footed condition, but it still doesn't allow you to do anything except kawarimi or whatever. You can use instant actions, but unsuppressing strength and speed ranks is a free action on your turn. Since you don't get a turn, you shouldn't be able to activate ranks.
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"No Hiruko, you can't fix people like you do for your puppets. When people fall apart they die."

[Frankto]

Uncanny dodge does not prevent you from being flat-footed. It allows you to retain your Dexterity bonus to Defense while flat-footed. Strength and speed ranks activate automatically when threatened.

That means even if the character is flat-footed, the ranks activate; whether or not he can gain any benefits from them is irrelevant. However, in the event that the character caught by surprise during a surprise round, he is defenseless--so to speak. Speed and strength ranks do not automatically activate until the first round of combat when you are on the other end of an ambush.

I clarified some of the misleading text.
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Thanks to all who donated! Your generosity is what keeps the project going!

[wash17]

Thanks for the clarification-have updated previous examples to clarify uncanny dodge. Back to epic cheese builds.

What bloodline or template would work best with this? This could also be an interesting build for the new young kage of a village whose lower level than the rest of them, but can still fight on their level for some reason.
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"so, you want the blessed thorium doors labeled containment, and you see now way this could go wrong?"

[keksmuzh]

So what bloodline/template is best for a highly melee focused super-buffer? Well lets consider them separately:

Bloodlines:
Any of the Doujutsu bloodlines that give bonuses to atk rolls (Byakugan, Sharingan, Keireigan, etc), are valid choices. Fluff-wise, you could have had an Uchiha copy one or both of the buff techs so he could learn them earlier than would otherwise have been possible.

Another possibility for more mechanics reasons than fluff would be Gumoshin, since it will give you extra arms and, as a GM, access to the multiattack feat series.

If you really dont care about LA, another possibility is Red Eyes with the True Red Eyes feat (total LA+5 with 2 bloodline lvls). If I were feeling particularly cruel this is probably the way I'd go. I like the Red Eyes fluff.

Templates:
Either of the Bijuu could work, as it is an additional buff. The Kyuubi works better since it is more Taijutsu focused, where Shukaku's tech list fits an elementalist better. The issue with these is, again, that neither of their frenzies can stack with Sage Mode.

I suppose Curse Seal could also work, though you'd have to justify in game why a village let an cursed individual become Kage. Ripper has the same problem.

Ungodly Descendants might work. The fast heal 5 helps overcome the Hachimon Tonkou effects, and sage chakra will suppress the demonic subtype, which could give you an in-story explanation for the character.
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"No Hiruko, you can't fix people like you do for your puppets. When people fall apart they die."