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Jyuuken and you
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Rairaku
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:53 pm    Post subject: Jyuuken and you Reply with quote

Jyuuken and Byakugan, both great ideas in concept. When applied to the naruto d20 universe tends to act out poorly.

To clarify mostly the issue with all this stems from touch attacks. Touch attacks are flawed themselves with the system we all use. With the usage of class bonuses applying to everything (much like deflection). So 98% of the time the average nin has full defenses versus a touch attack given his dex and class bonuses, At most the touch attack only really removes -2 to the AC of your average nin or worse a boss. In the end Jyuuken ends up falling short because a touch attack 90% of the time is at full defenses, the 10 remaining percent is for that occasional monster, or the samurai.

If the story is mainly based versus monsters that have the natural armor, then jyuuken tends to shine. The problem being that's not always the case.

The Pro's to jyuuken are fairly few and far. The free unarmed damage bonus die is good. This bonus is only really good with second stance when you can add your wisdom to damage, the first stance being lackluster.

Tenketsu damage, in truth I've never seen it in action enough for it to matter. On paper its really good but tenketsu sealing doesn't come till 6+
so thats a bit late on the arrival but it can be useful.

In the end what i am trying to poke at is a slight rework of the jyuuken system.

A example of a fix is, Jyuuken isnt a touch attack but attacks made in the stance negate 1 class bonus (the default would be the highest) meaning a prestige or multi class does not lose all the class bonuses but loses a bit. making it effectively a touch attack.

Another would be

Add +10 to your attack bonus and every time you hit a creature they must make a reflex save equal to the bonus or take half damage. (this means if they have evasion it is still applicable)

In the end i can only speculate on what the intentions were when creating the jyuuken trees...


Anyone else wanna ring in on it?
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Juuken is a bonus of Byakugan. A skilled player can make more than adequate use of it.
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Rairaku
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but the main issue of it was its below mediocre because of how touch attacks work.

a better question to all this is.

Why do touch attacks exist when the purpose of a touch attack is to avoid the main armor bonus of fighter types.

Its like a wizard trying to use a touch attack on a fighter with fullplate. The only catch is in Nd20 that fullplate applies to his AC too.

Note: in this equation the fullplate is his character bonus to AC
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ZeronosVega
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Jyuuken and you Reply with quote

If you want my honest opinion, I fail to see the reason for any change.

Quote:
To clarify mostly the issue with all this stems from touch attacks. Touch attacks are flawed themselves with the system we all use. With the usage of class bonuses applying to everything (much like deflection). So 98% of the time the average nin has full defenses versus a touch attack given his dex and class bonuses, At most the touch attack only really removes -2 to the AC of your average nin or worse a boss. In the end Jyuuken ends up falling short because a touch attack 90% of the time is at full defenses, the 10 remaining percent is for that occasional monster, or the samurai.


Just being able to target a touch defense is an advantage. After all, it's not like a Taijutsu Master or Weaponmaster can do that with the most basic of attacks. And that doesn't include the added bonuses of keeping the Byakugan active. The Byakugan is central to a Hyuuga's fighting style.

And sure, there will be times when you will have to deal with an enemy whose touch defense is equal to his/her regular defense. That just means that you'll have to land a blow the good ol' fashioned way. Finding a solution to the defense problem is possible; catching the opponent flat-footed quickly comes to mind. But I don't see having to hit at a regular defense as being a sort of Jyuuken problem. After all, all fighting styles have their strengths and weaknesses.

But as we have seen in the series, Jyuuken doesn't magically make it easy to hit opponents. Rather, they use a series of open-palm or finger jabs (or rather, touches) which aren't designed to deal a great amount of physical damage, but Tenketsu Damage.

Quote:
The Pro's to jyuuken are fairly few and far. The free unarmed damage bonus die is good. This bonus is only really good with second stance when you can add your wisdom to damage, the first stance being lackluster.

Tenketsu damage, in truth I've never seen it in action enough for it to matter. On paper its really good but tenketsu sealing doesn't come till 6+
so thats a bit late on the arrival but it can be useful.


Tenketsu damage is a VERY powerful ability, hence the reason it is limited to levels 6+. Again, the Hyuuga fighting style was designed around this very damage. They aren't going to be an insane powerhouse in the same way that a Taijutsu Master will be.

But it's as Frankto has put it, fighting using the Byakugan involves using its abilities in a way which will maximize their effectiveness.


EDIT:
Quote:
but the main issue of it was its below mediocre because of how touch attacks work.

a better question to all this is.

Why do touch attacks exist when the purpose of a touch attack is to avoid the main armor bonus of fighter types.

Its like a wizard trying to use a touch attack on a fighter with fullplate. The only catch is in Nd20 that fullplate applies to his AC too.

Note: in this equation the fullplate is his character bonus to AC


Look at it this way:

A class bonus to AC varies between the types of classes out there. We know that Fast-centric classes are bound to have more defense/level, since they lack the HP of a Tough Hero or the ability to wear medium to heavy armor. But, it's not like it's something only one class gets. However, the d20 system is scaled around the class bonus.

Take your fighter example but apply it to this system. If he's wearing armor, then the Hyuuga has a great advantage to hitting from the start. This is because, unlike any other melee fighter, the Hyuuga will just have to land a touch. Not to mention, this is all made easier because this armor will reduce the DEX bonus to defense depending on the size of the armor.

But again, if you don't get some advantage, then you will be in the same boat as any other melee fighter. Then you have to rethink your strategy. You also need to look at it like this: What kinds of characters are your enemies? While that's definitely for the GM to decide, sometimes a campaign can hinder a character type by sometimes removing a particular advantage for a player. It's just something which happens, but it if it a problem, then you need to consult the GM about it.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to use tenketsu damage well, use rokujuuyonshou or hyakunijuuhachishou. In the meantime, Jyuuken is the only way to use any ability modifier other than strength to deliver attack rolls, with is aiready a considerable bonus, not to mention that most ninja will use at least a reinforced suit, ninja vest or battle armor to bolster their defenses.
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Brightblinder
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry for butting in, but I think his point is that touch attacks are supposed to be an advantage but a lot of the time aren't much of an advantage at all. I think that class defense bonuses are a little overpowered because there aren't any good ways to get past them, and with a good combination of classes you can get a very high ac that mostly consist of bonuses that will almost always be there.
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ZeronosVega
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brightblinder wrote:
I'm sorry for butting in, but I think his point is that touch attacks are supposed to be an advantage but a lot of the time aren't much of an advantage at all. I think that class defense bonuses are a little overpowered because there aren't any good ways to get past them, and with a good combination of classes you can get a very high ac that mostly consist of bonuses that will almost always be there.


Like I mentioned in my post, there are other ways around a high AC. Some examples include but are not limited to: Flat-footed, Genjutsu Debuffing, Poison Debuffing, Binding, Snaring, etc.

But you have to also remember this: players usually won't find themselves in a situation where they are without their comrades. If that's the case, then the encounter should be designed to be challenging,and reasonable.

Also, if an opponent has been designed around having a huge class AC bonus, then they are going to be sacrificing potential in other areas such as their BAB, Chakra, Saves, etc. That's just one of those times when melee wouldn't be the best approach to dealing with said opponent.
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Rairaku
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right... Let me put this in a simpler way.

A touch attack is there to make attacks easier to hit. However this does not apply to any touch attack in Nd20

A level 1 Fast hero with +2 dex and +3 class bonus. I try to hit him with my fist. a fair amount of AC but not a terrible problem.

In that same spectrum i try a touch attack. He has the same defense....

it would be a rare cocasion if every class didnt get the same treatment of free armor

Edit: The argument here its not bout character concept but mechanics. A touch attack is supposed to lower common defenses... And it dosnt
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ZeronosVega
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rairaku wrote:
Right... Let me put this in a simpler way.

A touch attack is there to make attacks easier to hit. However this does not apply to any touch attack in Nd20

A level 1 Fast hero with +2 dex and +3 class bonus. I try to hit him with my fist. a fair amount of AC but not a terrible problem.

In that same spectrum i try a touch attack. He has the same defense....

it would be a rare cocasion if every class didnt get the same treatment of free armor


But, you're over-looking the fact that they DO make CERTAIN attacks easier to land against CERTAIN opponents. As such, you still have an advantage. Again, every class grants a bonus to AC and the system has been scaled around that.

And again, so what if the enemy isn't wearing any armor? That means you'll have to land a melee hit just like any other melee fighter and a Hyuuga is far from being incapable of pulling that off. Yes, in DnD, a touch attack with be more useful. But this isn't DnD. I just cannot for the life of me understand how you find that to be some sort of unfairness in the system. What caused this to be brought up in the first place?
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A touch attack isn't there to make it easier to hit, it's there to account for the fact that not everything is stopped by armor. Jyuuken has it strengths and precisely no weakness other Taijutsu users don't have.

You tell me how a punch or an fingertip strike are any different in terms of dodging and I will look at you strangely.
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Rairaku
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankto wrote:
A touch attack isn't there to make it easier to hit, it's there to account for the fact that not everything is stopped by armor. Jyuuken has it strengths and precisely no weakness other Taijutsu users don't have.

You tell me how a punch or an fingertip strike are any different in terms of dodging and I will look at you strangely.


The entire problem with the argument there is. Everyone STILL has high defenses versus touch attacks because of the class bonus.

In the end here is what it boils down to...

Level 3 joe has 1 level in fast hero and 2 levels in tough hero. Giving him a +5 to his defense and he has a average score of +1 in his dex. this gives him a 16 AC before armor, but sadly this joe doesnt have any.

So his touch defense is still 16 witch is still quite big even for level 3. and this isnt even applying the various bonuses like from a kodachi or speed ranks.

this is the base guideline, a 16 AC at level is still fairly high. So in a game that is riddled with touch attacks. He would still be in fair shape to even bother going without armor at all because that armor increases as he levels regardless.

In the end a level 3 still on average (even with levels in a good BaB class) has only the average of +5 melee or ranged given a above average attack roll of +2 BaB and +3 from a stat.

So tell me in this equation of a basic character that can be affected both ways how a touch attack matter. Either way he has a 16 defense touch or not.
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In that case it doesn't matter. Some characters are just more naturally dodgier than others based on their experience and development which is represented by character classes. If such things give them high class bonus to defense, then that's just how it is.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point is that touch defense will not, can not, be higher than anyone's actual defense. It's not changing. It's already more than strong enough as is.
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Rairaku
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ugh i stop this argument because it falls on deaf ears.

only question that remains, do i get my wisdom twice if i have masteries in nidan dachi and ruthless knight.

cause in normal universes you never get a stat added twice to damage rolls
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, you do not. And it's not falling on deaf ears. I understand what you're coming from; the problem is just that the only thing that your argument truly boils down to is "My character isn't strong enough, make my character stronger with the rules so I don't have to do anything."

I have to keep the system balanced regardless whether you like it or not, and I'm not going to deviate from that to please your ego.
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Rairaku
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankto wrote:
No, you do not. And it's not falling on deaf ears. I understand what you're coming from; the problem is just that the only thing that your argument truly boils down to is "My character isn't strong enough, make my character stronger with the rules so I don't have to do anything."

I have to keep the system balanced regardless whether you like it or not, and I'm not going to deviate from that to please your ego.


its not trying to please my ego at all, im trying to understand why touch attacks exist in the system. Or even attach the word touch attack to more than 40% of the jutsus listed.

Its like calling it awesome pizza when its just a regular cheese pizza

If a touch attach is just as good as a regular attack then why does the touch exist?
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of deaf ears... Consider this discussion over.
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skean
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rairaku wrote:
Frankto wrote:
A touch attack isn't there to make it easier to hit, it's there to account for the fact that not everything is stopped by armor. Jyuuken has it strengths and precisely no weakness other Taijutsu users don't have.

You tell me how a punch or an fingertip strike are any different in terms of dodging and I will look at you strangely.


The entire problem with the argument there is. Everyone STILL has high defenses versus touch attacks because of the class bonus.

In the end here is what it boils down to...

Level 3 joe has 1 level in fast hero and 2 levels in tough hero. Giving him a +5 to his defense and he has a average score of +1 in his dex. this gives him a 16 AC before armor, but sadly this joe doesnt have any.

So his touch defense is still 16 witch is still quite big even for level 3. and this isnt even applying the various bonuses like from a kodachi or speed ranks.

this is the base guideline, a 16 AC at level is still fairly high. So in a game that is riddled with touch attacks. He would still be in fair shape to even bother going without armor at all because that armor increases as he levels regardless.

In the end a level 3 still on average (even with levels in a good BaB class) has only the average of +5 melee or ranged given a above average attack roll of +2 BaB and +3 from a stat.

So tell me in this equation of a basic character that can be affected both ways how a touch attack matter. Either way he has a 16 defense touch or not.


The idea of that build having no armor I have to say is highly unlikely. Actually I find it unlikely that a lot of builds in Naruto d20 would not have a single point given in armor.

The smallest wealth bonus I can see a character having is 2, which would result on rolling two 1s for your starting wealth and not choosing any starting occupation that grants a wealth bonus, which is a little surprising but could happen. Also it would require you to put no ranks whatsoever in Profession despite being a class skill for both classes you chose there, but you could have a low int and really need the skill points for other things.

The second cheapest armor in the game is the Battle Vest for a purchase DC of 12 with no license restrictions. You can take a 10 on Wealth checks so can easily buy it despite having gotten the absolute lowest Wealth score possible. It grants a +2 bonus if you are proficient and if for some reason you are not proficient in light armor, it still provides a +1 bonus. The armor is concealable so it doesn't stick out and has the maximum dexterity bonus of +5 which the average character is not going to have to worry about surpassing for quite some time. It has no armor check penalty and does not lower your movement speed in anyway. Also it only weights 5 lb being the lightest armor in the game. If your character can somehow not handle that much weight on him, you have some serious problems. Unless a character has to not wear armor to benefit from a stance or class ability, I see little to no reason for any character not to buy this.

If for some reason your character has a Wealth score lower than 2 somehow, then buy the reinforced suit instead. It weights twice as much, only grants a +1 bonus to those proficient with it, and has a maximum dex bonus of +7 which is higher than any starting character should have. It has a purchase DC of 10. As stated above you can always take a 10 on wealth checks. I do not understand how you can fail this. Granted this one requires proficiency in light armor, but if you play with the optional rules every starting class in the game gives this to you. Personally I don't understand why you would play without this rule unless your GM wanted a setting where armor was practically nonexistent.

Anyways the above gives the average character a +1 to their defense that a touch attack would bypass. This gives you on average at the very least a +1 to hit. You know what else gives you a +1 to hit? Weapon Focus and that requires a feat.
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Reznor
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to get out of the DnD "Wizards V Fighters" mindset and importing over balancing factors.

Why, exactly, should the Byuakugan be hitting people easily all the time?
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Rairaku
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reznor wrote:
You need to get out of the DnD "Wizards V Fighters" mindset and importing over balancing factors.

Why, exactly, should the Byuakugan be hitting people easily all the time?


right...everyone at this point has missed what the big question i was asking and i think I've asked it multiple times.

its not the fact armor is easy to get or anyone has it.

the question in the WAS

Why do touch attacks exist then the mechanic of a touch attack is to make things easier to hit. By denying common bonuses such as armor natural armor. The problem in the end is the common defenses that it is supposed to circumvent. The flaw being in Naruto d20 you don't -need- to buy armor at all.

Big disclaimer here: I was using byakugan as an example of how touch attacks are flawed in the system and don't terribly have a place to be used liberally. Like ive said in earlier posts at level 3 A guy -can- have a 16 armor just naturally. now in ANY d20 based system that is still VERY high for a level 3 PC not including the usage of a armor bonus.

Mind you the average level 3 has a average tohit of 4 possibly 5. that is still a more than 60% chance that person will hit. Even at early levels the usage of touch attacks do not affect the equation at all. While in any other system a touch attack would increase that chance of hitting by atleast 10 to 20 percent of hitting. In the case of nd20 the touch attack falls short in terms of being just that, a touch attack.

Again ill say it, i was using jyuuken as an example. Ill use a another lower level

Kaihoudan (Pressure Cannon) a low level touch attack (Ray) in witch again at the lower levels a touch attack is no different from normal armor. the average being for this jutsu dosnt even need to be touch because the same number to hit does not increase or lessen because of the ray template, infant the only reason it COULD be defined as a ray is because of the description of the jutsu.

as my description above a touch attack AT MOST would get rid of a 1 MAYBE a 2 to the target's armor class. even at higher levels this number dosnt increase because armor just increases naturally just for existing.

In the end after all the posting my question remains unanswered; Why do touch attacks fall so short compared to ALL OTHER d20 systems or suppliments.

NOTE again: Jyuuken was an example not the entirety of the argument.

@Reznor, Youre right, why would i use a point of refrence to a game that the mechanics derive its own refrences from. Plus in Nd20 everyone is a wizard so you're right the fighter vs wizard dosnt exist.


skean wrote:


The idea of that build having no armor I have to say is highly unlikely. Actually I find it unlikely that a lot of builds in Naruto d20 would not have a single point given in armor.

The smallest wealth bonus I can see a character having is 2, which would result on rolling two 1s for your starting wealth and not choosing any starting occupation that grants a wealth bonus, which is a little surprising but could happen. Also it would require you to put no ranks whatsoever in Profession despite being a class skill for both classes you chose there, but you could have a low int and really need the skill points for other things.

The second cheapest armor in the game is the Battle Vest for a purchase DC of 12 with no license restrictions. You can take a 10 on Wealth checks so can easily buy it despite having gotten the absolute lowest Wealth score possible. It grants a +2 bonus if you are proficient and if for some reason you are not proficient in light armor, it still provides a +1 bonus. The armor is concealable so it doesn't stick out and has the maximum dexterity bonus of +5 which the average character is not going to have to worry about surpassing for quite some time. It has no armor check penalty and does not lower your movement speed in anyway. Also it only weights 5 lb being the lightest armor in the game. If your character can somehow not handle that much weight on him, you have some serious problems. Unless a character has to not wear armor to benefit from a stance or class ability, I see little to no reason for any character not to buy this.

If for some reason your character has a Wealth score lower than 2 somehow, then buy the reinforced suit instead. It weights twice as much, only grants a +1 bonus to those proficient with it, and has a maximum dex bonus of +7 which is higher than any starting character should have. It has a purchase DC of 10. As stated above you can always take a 10 on wealth checks. I do not understand how you can fail this. Granted this one requires proficiency in light armor, but if you play with the optional rules every starting class in the game gives this to you. Personally I don't understand why you would play without this rule unless your GM wanted a setting where armor was practically nonexistent.

Anyways the above gives the average character a +1 to their defense that a touch attack would bypass. This gives you on average at the very least a +1 to hit. You know what else gives you a +1 to hit? Weapon Focus and that requires a feat.



You miss the point, i was going off minimums of what he has BEFORE armor. the general minimum a character has is high touch defense at low levels (and even middle levels)
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The touch attack is not the end all and be all of Jyuuken. It's just a facet of it. It's a nice little bonus to your attack rolls.

If you look at Negi's fights, it was not his ability to hit opponents easier than any other given one, but his ability to shut down their tenketsu that made him a fierce fighter. If you're going to complain about an aspect of Jyuuken, you shouldn't complain about them being touch attacks.

Touch attacks are there to represent attacks that just have to HIT you to have their affect applied to you; it's not inherently there just to make things easier to hit, but to emulate the fact that if I'm firing a concentrated beam of fire energy at you, it doesn't matter how much armor you have. If it touches you, you're burned.
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ZeronosVega
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renzor is right, though. While DnD and the d20 System (not just Naruto d20) have similar rules, they are different animals. DnD is filled with Paladins and Fighters which will put on as much armor as possible to make up for the fact that they will have a crappy DEX modifier.

The d20 system, however, doesn't place as much importance on wearing armor. Considering the rules were originally designed for a modern era campaign, they had to do something to counteract the fact that players would progressively gain an increased BAB over the course of their campaign. But as I have mentioned numerous times, the system has been designed to take the class bonus to AC into consideration.

But to get back to the touch attack in general, it was never designed as some major advantage against everything. It was designed as a mechanic to represent situations where making contact with a foe was the only thing necessary for the attack to take effect. But, one still has to land the blow and I'm sure an opponent isn't stupid enough to stand there and let their enemy get away with that.

I'll reiterate once more: A touch attack is advantageous against armored foes. While it may seem limited, it is something every other melee fighter doesn't have. The only other time that a touch attack is used is in techniques. But if placed against someone/something without any armor, then a touch attack user will have to go up against the same kind of defense as everyone else, barring a Ninjutsu/Genjutsu user. But are you taking into consideration the average BAB of various character types of equal level in your examples?

Just look at our recent sparring match in SirShadow's campaign and compare the numbers:

Motoharu has the following attack and defense scores:

Attack: +3 = 3 [base] + 0 [str]
Def: 16 = 4 [class] + 2 [dex] (touch 16, flat-footed 14)

Rairaku has the following attack and defense scores:

Attack: +10 = +4 [base] +4 [wis] +1 [Keen Sight] +1 [Taijutsu]
Def: 17 = 4 [class] + 1 [dex] +2 [Byakugan] (touch 17, flat-footed 16)

Note: I removed anything which would be used only occasionally such as Speed/Strength Ranks. For your character, however, I would leave in the Byakugan bonus due to it being at the core of your character's style of combat.

Including the 1d20 require roll, you have around a 75% chance to hit Motoharu, which is pretty favorable. Even if I had armor to bolster my defenses, it would be a moot point because of the touch attacks. If, on the other hand, you were going the route of a Taijutsu Master, you would have to deal with said bonus. However, you would have a 1:1 BAB growth to compensate.

You can perform this comparison using any of the other characters in our campaign, and you would discover that Brightblinder's character would be the hardest to hit due to a defense of 22. However, 3 of that is due to armor, so you would actually only have to worry about a defense of 19. It's not everyday that one can just shave off 3 from a person's defense.

This same type of advantage would apply to any Smart or Charismatic hero, who would have below average defenses in which they would have to augment with some sort of armor.

Now don't get me wrong here, if there was a problem with the system then I would push this point just as hard. But the numbers speak for themselves and no imbalance can be found. The Jyuuken techniques (which were the focus of your original topic) are some of the most series-accurate techniques found in this book. This is nothing personal on my behalf and I'm sorry if at any time I may have come off as being rude. However, just stating that a touch attack has a situational bonus doesn't mean that the mechanic doesn't function as intended nor is it unfair. When attacks are designated as a touch attack, chances are that they have the potential for higher-than-usual damage or a unique ability is tied to them. Granting those attacks a huge hitting advantage than what they already have would throw any sort of balance off kilter.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, random concern: Has Rairaku not taken a bloodline level? If that's the case, then you might want to do some adjustments, else you're restricting your abilities to those from levels 1-5 and adding a 10% experience penalty.
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Rairaku
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in the end ive come to the conclusion even in running a game being in one and watching others armor itself doesn't seem to come into play alot. whilt it is there it just dosnt seem to show up alot in earlier levels, but seems ot show up much later like 10+.

And my level i lose for it is 7 and 14 instead of 6 and 12
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ZeronosVega
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is SS playing with some sort of house rule? You'd normally have to have your first bloodline level in before you hit 6th level and your second in before you hit 13th level.
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Shun
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on your game and players, if you favor grappling than you'll see alot of touch attacks.
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZeronosVega wrote:
Is SS playing with some sort of house rule? You'd normally have to have your first bloodline level in before you hit 6th level and your second in before you hit 13th level.
Yes.
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Killercloud
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZeronosVega wrote:
Is SS playing with some sort of house rule? You'd normally have to have your first bloodline level in before you hit 6th level and your second in before you hit 13th level.


Also, you don't HAVE to take them before that, but you don't gain the benefits of a higher level until you do.
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ZeronosVega
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Killercloud wrote:
ZeronosVega wrote:
Is SS playing with some sort of house rule? You'd normally have to have your first bloodline level in before you hit 6th level and your second in before you hit 13th level.


Also, you don't HAVE to take them before that, but you don't gain the benefits of a higher level until you do.


I know that. But you do have to take the bloodline level before those points, unless you want the experience penalty. Basically, it's a smart thing to do.
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Reznor
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What it comes down to is that touch attacks are more of an advantage in DnD than in Naruto d20 - you are right - but that is perfectly fine. There is nothing designed in such a way that it treats touch attack as a huge advantage.

In DnD, touch attack may be a big balancing factor. In Naruto d20 it isn't as much so.

If you think that touch attacks should be a bigger deal in-universe, but that big deal is not reflected in the mechanics, then I'd ask how often touch attacks are a big deal in the manga. [/list]
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Rairaku
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reznor wrote:
What it comes down to is that touch attacks are more of an advantage in DnD than in Naruto d20 - you are right - but that is perfectly fine. There is nothing designed in such a way that it treats touch attack as a huge advantage.

In DnD, touch attack may be a big balancing factor. In Naruto d20 it isn't as much so.

If you think that touch attacks should be a bigger deal in-universe, but that big deal is not reflected in the mechanics, then I'd ask how often touch attacks are a big deal in the manga. [/list]


If a touch attack in d20 is just as effective as a regular attack then why call it something else? Its not necessarily a useless mechanic but it can be favored for a different one or possibly reworked to be not better or worse but more functional, or have it play a more important role.

And if we compare everything to the manga its far off than it actually is...
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