Redundancy Conflict in Requirements

[Infinitus]

Okay here it goes, you want probably some examples:

Jigensuu no Jutsu needs Ninjutsu 12 ranks, and has a perform requirement of 11 ranks and needs at least 7 character levels with genius nin

Rank => CL => 10 or 11 Ninjutsu ranks.
Perform => 11 Ninjutsu ranks else roll.
Requirements => 12 Ninjutsu ranks.

or Chirou no Jutsu:
Rank => CL => 8 or 9 Ninjutsu ranks
Perform => 8 Ninjutsu ranks else roll.
Requirements => 12 Ninjutsu ranks.

or Dokutsume no Jutsu:
Rank => CL => 8 or 9 Ninjutsu ranks
Perform => 9 Ninjutsu ranks else roll.
Requirements => 12 Ninjutsu ranks.

there are countless more examples. The perform requirement has no effect on these techniques and is always met. The rank is degraded to a saving throw indicator and the requirements overwrite about anything.

This might and need to be changed to a more streamlined version, that is what i am vouching for with this thread.
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[SirShadow]

So what you're saying is, the Requirements for the techniques are equal to or greater than the Perform Requirements?

[Infinitus]

I am saying you have three level restrictions of which one is implicit and the greatest one of them counts.

One level restriction would be enough.
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[Jensik]

Speaking as someone who has used *-jutsu ranks as a requirement, I can say that this (at least when I do it) is intentional.

There are times when a technique needs to be impossible to learn for characters of a certain level, but increasing the rank would imbalance the save DC and other Rank related factors, which is where skill rank requirements come in.
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[Frankto]

And guess what? Every single one is intentional. Mechanics go more than one layer down, shockingly, which is where you always stop looking.
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[Infinitus]

[Frankto]

Yeah, no. Just... no. That is a terrible, terrible way of handling it, and not only would it break a lot of things that work, it is a horribly inefficient, unattractive and just plain clunky way of doing it, and I think it's quite fine like this.
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[Infinitus]

[Frankto]

Anyone incapable to look at a technique's rank, then to check the requirements before checking the skill threshold should not be playing roleplaying games. I'm going to give you a piece of advice that may save your life someday: Stay away from GURPS or most non-d20 system. It would, for sure, completely overwhelm you in its complexity.
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[Infinitus]

[Frankto]

This is the part were I just shake my head in bemusement and wonder if you've really ever read the rules at all.
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[Infinitus]

Better would be the point where you troll me for like four posts, hinting to that you have arguments in your posts, but not giving any of them. I am most certainly not able to read minds over distances of 3000 miles and more.

If it helps, I read the rules, but I still see only one point in not becoming Legolas and stating the obvious, which is the amount of work it requires.
But I see no reason, maybe unless you are giving real arguments.
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[Hito Hyuga]

Okay, the point behind it is to make techniques that are powerful have manageable save DCs so those techniques listed are not both powerful and impossible to avoid. It's a balance, and it works. I even homebrew my techniques like that, if they require it.

[Frankto]

The goal is to make a cohesive system. The technique's rank and how many ranks in a skill or what feat it requires to learn are directly related, and this is perfectly fine because it works well, because if you can match neither you will not learn the technique anyway. The skill threshold is only loosely related to either and is subject to change from meta-chakra feats and class features, and this will not change, at least not in the manner which you suggest.

Arguing with you is like pulling teeth, and it always seems to me like you are being deliberately obtuse. What you suggest is completely ruining the integrity of the learn system, and massacring the smooth, streamlined feel I've finally managed to achieve after so much work, and replacing it with a system that is even worse and more clumsy than the last. I haven't been trolling you, I'm just busy, irritated and increasingly annoyed at your insistance and I just didn't feel like getting into a long explanation about precisely why your ideas suck and I won't use them. Your systems don't work well, Infinitus, and they are not efficient. They fail at the most basic rule like I failed to understand as well, so long ago: Keep it simple, stupid.

And if that means having the players take 0.375 seconds longer looking at a technique to read the requirements, then so be it. It's cohesive, it's balancing, it's nice and more importantly, it lets me control the techniques system in ways I could not have before, and Hito is absolutely right about that. But more importantly, it puts everyone on a somewhat familiar ground and it doesn't turn them away as they realize that they have a 1100 page monster of a book to read, because they're already somewhat familiar with how this works.

You wanted to know, well now you know.
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[Infinitus]