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Redundancy Conflict in Requirements

 
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Infinitus
Holiday Ninja


Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:44 am    Post subject: Redundancy Conflict in Requirements Reply with quote

Okay here it goes, you want probably some examples:

Jigensuu no Jutsu needs Ninjutsu 12 ranks, and has a perform requirement of 11 ranks and needs at least 7 character levels with genius nin

Rank => CL => 10 or 11 Ninjutsu ranks.
Perform => 11 Ninjutsu ranks else roll.
Requirements => 12 Ninjutsu ranks.

or Chirou no Jutsu:
Rank => CL => 8 or 9 Ninjutsu ranks
Perform => 8 Ninjutsu ranks else roll.
Requirements => 12 Ninjutsu ranks.

or Dokutsume no Jutsu:
Rank => CL => 8 or 9 Ninjutsu ranks
Perform => 9 Ninjutsu ranks else roll.
Requirements => 12 Ninjutsu ranks.

there are countless more examples. The perform requirement has no effect on these techniques and is always met. The rank is degraded to a saving throw indicator and the requirements overwrite about anything.

This might and need to be changed to a more streamlined version, that is what i am vouching for with this thread.
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what you're saying is, the Requirements for the techniques are equal to or greater than the Perform Requirements?
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Infinitus
Holiday Ninja


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am saying you have three level restrictions of which one is implicit and the greatest one of them counts.

One level restriction would be enough.
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Jensik
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking as someone who has used *-jutsu ranks as a requirement, I can say that this (at least when I do it) is intentional.

There are times when a technique needs to be impossible to learn for characters of a certain level, but increasing the rank would imbalance the save DC and other Rank related factors, which is where skill rank requirements come in.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And guess what? Every single one is intentional. Mechanics go more than one layer down, shockingly, which is where you always stop looking.
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Infinitus
Holiday Ninja


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jensik wrote:
Speaking as someone who has used *-jutsu ranks as a requirement, I can say that this (at least when I do it) is intentional.

There are times when a technique needs to be impossible to learn for characters of a certain level, but increasing the rank would imbalance the save DC and other Rank related factors, which is where skill rank requirements come in.


Frankto wrote:
And guess what? Every single one is intentional. Mechanics go more than one layer down, shockingly, which is where you always stop looking.


I know that they are intentional.

I am just pointing out that checking every element thrice makes stuff clunkier than it needs to be.
Check level, check ranks in perform, check ranks in requirements if they are there.
Adding a prerequisite as skill ranks, which can be easily translated from level would make the entire stuff a bit simpler to checking everything.
if you change additionally rank: 8 (X-Class) to just rank: X-Class and add something like Base Save: 18, this would pretty much streamline it more than it is now.

Was there something with mastery and rank, that I missed? If yes, just change it to increased skill rank requirement and voila.

Without regex, I wouldn't be doing that cosmetic change just for visibility. But maybe if you have some headache days and have nothing to do... Wink
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, no. Just... no. That is a terrible, terrible way of handling it, and not only would it break a lot of things that work, it is a horribly inefficient, unattractive and just plain clunky way of doing it, and I think it's quite fine like this.
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Infinitus
Holiday Ninja


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankto wrote:
Yeah, no. Just... no. That is a terrible, terrible way of handling it, and not only would it break a lot of things that work, it is a horribly inefficient, unattractive and just plain clunky way of doing it, and I think it's quite fine like this.


This was an example of doing it. I guess there are many other ways to do it.

And how is doing one check as a player worse than checking three different things? I fail to comprehend that. And what other things are there to break?
Maybe I don't see the big picture because I am looking solely from a players perspective. If so, please enlighten me.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone incapable to look at a technique's rank, then to check the requirements before checking the skill threshold should not be playing roleplaying games. I'm going to give you a piece of advice that may save your life someday: Stay away from GURPS or most non-d20 system. It would, for sure, completely overwhelm you in its complexity.
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Infinitus
Holiday Ninja


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankto wrote:
Anyone incapable to look at a technique's rank, then to check the requirements before checking the skill threshold should not be playing roleplaying games. I'm going to give you a piece of advice that may save your life someday: Stay away from GURPS or most non-d20 system. It would, for sure, completely overwhelm you in its complexity.


I am usually playing more complex games games than d20 games, involving far more and richer rules. But in every single one of them are the requirements listed in a straight forward manner.
In fact, as far as I can tell, the only game that lists the requirements in more than one list is Nd20.

So I guess that point goes to me, unless you can tell me, what in the big picture I am missing.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the part were I just shake my head in bemusement and wonder if you've really ever read the rules at all.
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Infinitus
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Better would be the point where you troll me for like four posts, hinting to that you have arguments in your posts, but not giving any of them. I am most certainly not able to read minds over distances of 3000 miles and more.

If it helps, I read the rules, but I still see only one point in not becoming Legolas and stating the obvious, which is the amount of work it requires.
But I see no reason, maybe unless you are giving real arguments.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, the point behind it is to make techniques that are powerful have manageable save DCs so those techniques listed are not both powerful and impossible to avoid. It's a balance, and it works. I even homebrew my techniques like that, if they require it.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The goal is to make a cohesive system. The technique's rank and how many ranks in a skill or what feat it requires to learn are directly related, and this is perfectly fine because it works well, because if you can match neither you will not learn the technique anyway. The skill threshold is only loosely related to either and is subject to change from meta-chakra feats and class features, and this will not change, at least not in the manner which you suggest.

Arguing with you is like pulling teeth, and it always seems to me like you are being deliberately obtuse. What you suggest is completely ruining the integrity of the learn system, and massacring the smooth, streamlined feel I've finally managed to achieve after so much work, and replacing it with a system that is even worse and more clumsy than the last. I haven't been trolling you, I'm just busy, irritated and increasingly annoyed at your insistance and I just didn't feel like getting into a long explanation about precisely why your ideas suck and I won't use them. Your systems don't work well, Infinitus, and they are not efficient. They fail at the most basic rule like I failed to understand as well, so long ago: Keep it simple, stupid.

And if that means having the players take 0.375 seconds longer looking at a technique to read the requirements, then so be it. It's cohesive, it's balancing, it's nice and more importantly, it lets me control the techniques system in ways I could not have before, and Hito is absolutely right about that. But more importantly, it puts everyone on a somewhat familiar ground and it doesn't turn them away as they realize that they have a 1100 page monster of a book to read, because they're already somewhat familiar with how this works.

You wanted to know, well now you know.
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Infinitus
Holiday Ninja


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hito Hyuga wrote:
Okay, the point behind it is to make techniques that are powerful have manageable save DCs so those techniques listed are not both powerful and impossible to avoid. It's a balance, and it works. I even homebrew my techniques like that, if they require it.


That wouldn't explain why dissecting the stuff and displaying it an orderly manner that would make Adrian Monk proud does not work.

Frankto wrote:
The goal is to make a cohesive system. The technique's rank and how many ranks in a skill or what feat it requires to learn are directly related, and this is perfectly fine because it works well, because if you can match neither you will not learn the technique anyway. The skill threshold is only loosely related to either and is subject to change from meta-chakra feats and class features, and this will not change, at least not in the manner which you suggest.

Arguing with you is like pulling teeth, and it always seems to me like you are being deliberately obtuse. What you suggest is completely ruining the integrity of the learn system, and massacring the smooth, streamlined feel I've finally managed to achieve after so much work, and replacing it with a system that is even worse and more clumsy than the last. I haven't been trolling you, I'm just busy, irritated and increasingly annoyed at your insistance and I just didn't feel like getting into a long explanation about precisely why your ideas suck and I won't use them. Your systems don't work well, Infinitus, and they are not efficient. They fail at the most basic rule like I failed to understand as well, so long ago: Keep it simple, stupid.

And if that means having the players take 0.375 seconds longer looking at a technique to read the requirements, then so be it. It's cohesive, it's balancing, it's nice and more importantly, it lets me control the techniques system in ways I could not have before, and Hito is absolutely right about that. But more importantly, it puts everyone on a somewhat familiar ground and it doesn't turn them away as they realize that they have a 1100 page monster of a book to read, because they're already somewhat familiar with how this works.

You wanted to know, well now you know.


The problem with the obtuse sounding stuff is that I try to dumb the problem down to a very simple level.
I never said what I am suggesting works. I am pretty sure that my suggestion ruins the whole system over, as every single chapter would have to be changed significantly. Especially the sealing Tenketsu stuff, and other stuff that is fine the way it is. I didn't want to change everything.

And wow, I thought in the second post, I wrote bullshit no one is understanding me again. This seems to be very true.
I am saying you don't need two and a half level restrictions, even three and a half if you add the fact of a reasonable learn dc.
I am not saying I have a solution for it, merely I am trying to suggest models to explain the problem better, at least it was in this case that way.

It is just a cosmetic suggestion.
But if it is not done, there is nothing wrong with it. But still, I cannot see how anyone could say that the current amount of level restriction in a single technique is good the way it is.
The system works, and I am most certainly not the guy for simple small changes that have no effect, I don't reach a surgical precision with words.

edit:
And for the "it gives you greater balancing control" stuff: How can four level restrictions give you more balancing than one, if only one of them counts. It can't in fact.
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