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Class-specific Techniques

 
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NinjaCP
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:14 pm    Post subject: Class-specific Techniques Reply with quote

(EDIT: Formatted for emphasis, since people seem to be missing the point of this thread.)

I had talked about this with Frankto a while ago, and I thought I'd get some input from you guys about this since I've hit a bit of a wall.

I was taking a look through the mainfile one day and I realized that the requirements for a lot of techniques tend to be relatively easy to meet, regardless of your character's build. Some require a specific feat in order to learn, or might be more easily learned with a specific class feature (e.g. Medical techniques), but there aren't very many techniques that are specific to a particular class.

This means that, effectively, there's nothing to stop a Blinkstrike or an Elementalist from having the exact same repetoire of techniques as a Shinobi Swordsman or a Taijutsu Master. In addition, most class abilities give either a static bonus or effect (like Chakra State), or is only usable a certain number of times per day (such as Rage of the Elements or Quicken Technique). There aren't really any class abilities that have an instantaneous or set-duration effect that you can just use at-will.


To remedy this perceived flaw in the system, I had proposed that there ought to exist techniques which require and/or enhance specific talents or class abilities. This will both give classes something interesting to do that both fits with their theme and can be used relatively frequently. It will also serve to help highlight the uniqueness of each class when compared against other classes.


The catch is that I'm having difficulty coming up with ideas for specific techniques. Ideally, the focus would be on giving the class more variety in what they can do rather than just making their existing abilities better. For example, giving an Elementalist something along the lines of Amatsu no Karada would be great. Giving them somethng that makes Rage of the Elements more powerful would not.

Does anyone have any ideas for techniques like what I've described that you think would be really cool? Because I'm drawing a total blank here.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a problem I have encountered many times in the past. I've made an effort to ensure the original idea is kept intact, that everyone should be able to do anything they wish provided they are willing to put forth the time and effort, while still making some things more difficult to attain.

I'm always willing to accept suggestions, and this is no different. If you guys have good ideas to contribute, then I would be more than willing to implement them.
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ZeronosVega
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it would be a neat idea, but it's as Frankto said, it's easier said than done. I mean, the only classes I can think of which already fit that bill are the Medical Specialist (and even then, someone with enough time can learn Medical techniques), the Puppeteer and the Sage (and one can technically use those even if they haven't entered the class, me thinks).

Regardless, it would be a bit difficult to implement, but I do like the potential it presents and I don't think it would alienate enough people if there are a few limitations here and there. I mean, it's not like every technique needs to be like that. Blah, I think I'm just ranting at this point...

As far as ideas are concerned, maybe some Chakra Scalpel techniques for the Medical Specialist/Exarch? Or some specific to the Beastlord/animals which aren't canine. I mean, they aren't specific suggestions, but those are some of the classes where the techniques created wouldn't alienate that "I want to do a bit of everything" player, since those are attributes VERY specific to the aforementioned classes (and template, by default).
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could also do something similar to the Samurai class to certain techniques. They have special conditions (like being able to be used during full attack actions) but require a number of levels in the aforementioned class.

I can already see this working really well with the Technique Analyst class, as they would have such extensive knowledge of techniques. Granted, for ninjutsu, the techniques that interacted with the Technique analyst class would work differently than Taijutsu or Genjutsu techniques that interacted with having so many levels in the class. However, such things might be hard to implement.
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Infinitus
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Class techniques are pretty specific and I would like to keep the mainfile in a more general way, as the basis of a set of rules, so highly specific stuff can be pulled out so Frankto can live on it.

If you make say only for prestige classes techniques, then you have to make for every class one or some. That is easily filling several sites with specific stuff.

I am not against that idea, I am against putting it into the mainfile.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Infinitus wrote:
Class techniques are pretty specific and I would like to keep the mainfile in a more general way, as the basis of a set of rules, so highly specific stuff can be pulled out so Frankto can live on it.

If you make say only for prestige classes techniques, then you have to make for every class one or some. That is easily filling several sites with specific stuff.

I am not against that idea, I am against putting it into the mainfile.


umm.... you do realize there are 4 techniques in the main file only samurai can learn, right?

They are Kenjutsu: Kessen Ougi - Hiryuusai, Kessen Ougi - Sogeki, Soujutsu: Kessen Ougi - Tensou Ranka, and Tsuijutsu: Kessen Ougi - Metsugeki these can only be learned by one who has the supreme path ability from samurai, no one else can learn them.
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Infinitus
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes. I know. I do not like it.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Infinitus wrote:
yes. I know. I do not like it.


I think it is a good idea, otherwise the samurai class is pretty much a 10 level weapon master class, that can use heavier armor. It gave it something that kept it from being "another one of those" classes.
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Infinitus
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, it might be a good idea, but I still do not like it having in the mainfile.

it is the same thing with sealed items, they are not necessarily bound to the mainfile, they are not essential for the gameplay, they could all be shoved in the sealed item book.
imho the mainfile could feature more optional rules and less specific content... oh that reminds me of a request that is probably needed.
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NinjaCP
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To reiterate my original post, I'm not talking about making each class completely different from the others; I just think there should be a little something that you can use whenever you want that makes being a Master Strategist different from being a Ninja Operations Counter, as opposed to relying on two uses per day of Swift Planning or Technique Counter to distinguish you as being different.

(EDITED because I broke my own #1 Rule)

ZeronosVega wrote:
As far as ideas are concerned, maybe some Chakra Scalpel techniques for the Medical Specialist/Exarch? Or some specific to the Beastlord/animals which aren't canine.


YES. This is the sort of thing I'm looking for. Kind of.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NinjaCP wrote:
To reiterate my original post, I'm not talking about making each class completely different from the others; I just think there should be a little something that you can use whenever you want that makes being a Master Strategist different from being a Ninja Operations Counter, as opposed to relying on two uses per day of Swift Planning or Technique Counter to distinguish you as being different.


I have to agree, I would like to see something along the lines of this, as Ninja Operations Counter is one of my favorite classes.
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cmkawasaki
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hito Hyuga wrote:
NinjaCP wrote:
To reiterate my original post, I'm not talking about making each class completely different from the others; I just think there should be a little something that you can use whenever you want that makes being a Master Strategist different from being a Ninja Operations Counter, as opposed to relying on two uses per day of Swift Planning or Technique Counter to distinguish you as being different.


I have to agree, I would like to see something along the lines of this, as Ninja Operations Counter is one of my favorite classes.


Let me raise a counter argument to this perceived flaw in the system:

The Classes' abilities are literally the only thing distinguishing the classes currently. Why do we do anything solely based on Class?

Let's take the Ninja Scout as an example. Why should the Ninja Scout's abilities be different from any other abilities?

Track - Nin Operations Counter has a similar capability. Why should they be treated differently?

Evasion X - it's Evasion or Improved Evasion. Guess what? Over a dozen combinations produce this talent.

Hide in Plain Sight - why should this be different from the Genjutsu Master's capability?

Sneak Attack - this does not differ from class to class at all.

Since it's abilities that we base ninjutsu prerequisites on, let's go into the Abilities that do limit jutsu choices:

Medical Ability - This is one of the poster children of abilities that grant you specialized ninjutsu.

Puppetry - this is literally one of the poster children for a way of fighting that is entirely class based. You cannot use puppet components without this class ability, and all class abilities from this point on enhance your ability to fight with puppets.

Advanced Chakra Nature Manipulation - it gives you an advanced element. Nothing more needs to be said about it being it's own brand of ninjutsu.

Why don't we have unique ninjutsu or genjutsu for all similar kinds of Class Abilities? Simple. It's too much work to create large quantities of techniques for each perceived class ability and stick them all into the main file.

Also, there are several abilities, such as the Elementalists, which improve other jutsu techniques. Should they be allowed / Permitted to derive more techniques. that they would then amplify? My gut states that the answer is questionable at best.
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NinjaCP
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmkawasaki wrote:
Let me raise a counter argument to this perceived flaw in the system:

The Classes' abilities are literally the only thing distinguishing the classes currently. Why do we do anything solely based on Class?

Let's take the Ninja Scout as an example. Why should the Ninja Scout's abilities be different from any other abilities?

I'm not sure that this is a good example to use, as the Ninja Scout is intended to be a fairly generic class. The description for it even states "[t]he Ninja Scout is the most common type of ninja... Most ninja eventually take levels in this class, as it covers the most basic skills."

I'm also not advocating for altering existing class abilities, nor did I say that the same ability should work differently depending on which class you got it from. I'm talking about thematically distinguishing a class from other similar classes via technique selection.
cmkawasaki wrote:
Since it's abilities that we base ninjutsu prerequisites on, let's go into the Abilities that do limit jutsu choices:

Medical Ability - This is one of the poster children of abilities that grant you specialized ninjutsu.

Puppetry - this is literally one of the poster children for a way of fighting that is entirely class based. You cannot use puppet components without this class ability, and all class abilities from this point on enhance your ability to fight with puppets.

Advanced Chakra Nature Manipulation - it gives you an advanced element. Nothing more needs to be said about it being it's own brand of ninjutsu.

This is precisely what I'm talking about: each of the examples listed here gives its corresponding class its own distinct flavor. I would like to see more techniques along this vein.
cmkawasaki wrote:
Why don't we have unique ninjutsu or genjutsu for all similar kinds of Class Abilities? Simple. It's too much work to create large quantities of techniques for each perceived class ability and stick them all into the main file.

That is a good point, but I don't think that it will be an issue for the following reason:
Frankto wrote:
I'm always willing to accept suggestions, and this is no different. If you guys have good ideas to contribute, then I would be more than willing to implement them.

Furthermore, I'm not saying that every single class ability ought to have techniques associated with it. The work necessary to do that would be superfluous and absurdly time-consuming.
cmkawasaki wrote:
Also, there are several abilities, such as the Elementalists, which improve other jutsu techniques. Should they be allowed / Permitted to derive more techniques. that they would then amplify? My gut states that the answer is questionable at best.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I think this statement I made earlier might be relevant:
NinjaCP wrote:
Ideally, the focus would be on giving the class more variety in what they can do rather than just making their existing abilities better. For example, giving an Elementalist something along the lines of Amatsu no Karada would be great. Giving them somethng that makes Rage of the Elements more powerful would not.

Specifically, I meant that Amatsu no Karada allows Elementalists to do something that Ninjutsu Cannon-types don't normally do: engage in melee and be able to deal a reasonable amount of damage. It gives the Elementalist something interesting to do other than fire off AoE attacks round after round. More importantly, it does so in a way that fits with the whole theme of the Elementalist class.


I can't really understand why everyone wants to debate whether or not this is something that should or shouldn't be done. Frankto has already stated that he's willing to implement it if good ideas are forthcoming, so that's a moot issue.
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cmkawasaki
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NinjaCP wrote:

Specifically, I meant that Amatsu no Karada allows Elementalists to do something that Ninjutsu Cannon-types don't normally do: engage in melee and be able to deal a reasonable amount of damage. It gives the Elementalist something interesting to do other than fire off AoE attacks round after round. More importantly, it does so in a way that fits with the whole theme of the Elementalist class.


I can't really understand why everyone wants to debate whether or not this is something that should or shouldn't be done. Frankto has already stated that he's willing to implement it if good ideas are forthcoming, so that's a moot issue.


It's simple, really - we're debating whether or not something should be changed. As for the aforementioned ninjutsu, I agree that gives the elementalist something interesting to do. I also state that it is utterly weak and not very useful in the grand scheme of things, but at least it's something.

But anyways, if you were looking for ideas, I'm not exactly going to be forthright about them because my ideas are less Naruto D20 esque and more Magic kinds of things.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The nature of techniques is such that anyone with the proper training (i.e. ranks in jutsu type) can learn and perform them.

I think making specific techniques for specific classes does not fit for every class (making a chakra scalpel technique makes sense because you want to be able to do things with the scalpel, not because the medic needs special techniques), and there is no class for which it is extremely vital, apart from the jutsu that currently exist.

Why would an Elementalist need special jutsu? Does it not derive it's entire strength from the multitude of elemental techniques out there, each of which could be used at a moment's notice, a fair number of times per day (depending on the elementalist's chakra pool).

Your techniques and feats should be chosen to add to your class abilities. Choose some that go well with them, find a few that will give you options, etc.

Giving each class specific techniques? no.

I don't think I've seen any shinobi in the manga or anime that has exhibited anything like this. A shinobi is a shinobi. They have different skills, yes, but what techniques they have are mostly just a matter of choice.

I'd say that the ability to learn and perform practically any technique in the book is *exactly* what differentiates people from each other. Yes, everyone *could* learn the same techniques, but they won't. Not everyone likes the same things, and as a group people often give an attempt to spread out abilities among the group.

In conclusion, I don't really see the point. I think it's a nice, optional addition (who doesn't love more techniques), but it is far from a necessary one on any level.
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NinjaCP
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Class-specific Techniques Reply with quote

-_-; I'm gonna try and rephrase my position a bit because I feel like you guys are missing the main point I'm trying to make.
NinjaCP wrote:
...most class abilities give either a static bonus or effect (like Chakra State), or is only usable a certain number of times per day (such as Rage of the Elements or Quicken Technique). There aren't really any class abilities that have an instantaneous or set-duration effect that you can just use at-will.

This is really the heart of what I have to say. After you've used up your daily allotments of Swift Planning or what-have-you, a lot of classes fall flat in terms of active-use abilities that give them their unique flavor. The benefits of the class are mostly restricted to passive mechanics that border on being "invisible" (Mettle, Weapon Specialization), or may not come into play very often (Exarch Smite).

Are such passive abilities useful? Absolutely. But they can also be sort of boring. I'm not saying that they should be changed, or taken away. I just think it would be nice if some classes had a few per-encounter or at-will abilities that would help them to stand out in their particular field; something that can be actively used with relative frequency.

What I'm proposing that having techniques that are unique to a given class (which would be reflected by including a particular ability granted by that class in the technique's requirements) would functionally be the same as having these per-encounter or at-will abilities. If everyone is so dead-set against having something like this put in the mainfile, then by all means make it a supplement.

There's no reason why every single class needs to have its own technique(s) that fall into this particular category, nor is there any reason for there to be an inordinately large number of them. Some classes already have flavorful abilities that can be used more or less at will.


Ultimately, what I'm trying to outline here isn't all that different from a Genjutsu Master being able to choose which Genjutsu Mastery they pick up, or an Exarch deciding which Exarch Arcana they want to gain when they level up. There are only two differences between that and what I'm proposing. For one, in these cases, the character would have to invest a little bit of time in-game to pursuing them. Secondly, such abilities would be active rather than passive.
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ZeronosVega
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What I'm proposing that having techniques that are unique to a given class (which would be reflected by including a particular ability granted by that class in the technique's requirements) would functionally be the same as having these per-encounter or at-will abilities. If everyone is so dead-set against having something like this put in the mainfile, then by all means make it a supplement.


This is why I had originally proposed techniques which only a class could use because of specific conditions/abilities. A good example would be any Puppetry technique which requires one of the Advanced Puppetry class abilities. Now, not every class necessarily needs unique techniques, but I can see where there is potential. It just needs to be more focused on particular abilities or maybe class specialties (such as my earlier Beast Lord mention, where there could be techniques involving multiple companions/more techniques involving the non-dog companions in order to expand them).

Whether nor not they need to be stuffed in the Main File is debatable, but that's not the main concern of this discussion. Again, I see potential in this and it's not like we don't already have techniques which do something similar already.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll agree that it would be nice to have a few class specific traits that really set them apart from the other prestige classes.

However it you limit the technique selection to much it can hurt the over party dynamic. In the last game I was playing in I was a Genjutsu master but at the same time I was the only player that bothered to learn the basic medical techniques.

Improvements can be made to make the classes more unique. However adding extra techs or modifying the ones currently in the book feels like it falls under the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' category.
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SjachIxen
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just throwing my 2 cents in.

Having the techniques be entirely optional is key here, I think. Additionally, I think each class should have several techniques of different flavor allotted to it. Using the samurai example, the bow samurai vs the spear samurai vs the sword samurai vs etc each with it's own exclusive tech, making a series of techniques you CAN learn to advance your characters class flavor in a particular direction rather than another is what will probably make or break this entire concept.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to write a long, thought-filled post about how this is playing out, but hey, let me just say it clearly. I've already made my support of the idea clear, and that's not going to change. If I have the opportunity to enrich some playstyles with new techniques for anyone who caters to them to learn, I will. I guess you're just going to have to live with that.
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NinjaCP
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to go against my own principles and delve into the dark art of thread necromancy, but I finally came up with an example of what I was thinking of. Not the best, but note that the technique requires the Chitin class ability from the Hivemaster.

I'm not going to claim that this are balanced or finished, because it's not. But it should be enough to give an idea of what I'm talking about.


??? (???)
Ninjutsu (requires Symbiote (a), Chitin (a)) [Aburame Hijutsu]
Rank: 9 (A-Class); Learn DC: ??, ? success; Perform requirements: ? ranks (DC ??); Time: 1 attack action; Components: H, E, F; Range: Personal; Target: Self; Duration: 1 round/3 levels (D); Saving Throws: None; Chakra Resistance: No; Chakra Cost: 4.

This technique allows the user to create a chitinous shell out of chakra and secretions from his symbiote swarms.

The natural armor bonus granted by the user?s Chitin ability increases to +3 for the duration of the technique.

Empower: The user can spend 2 chakra increase the natural armor bonus granted by +1, up to +1 every 3 levels or +7 total.

Material Focus: One symbiote swarm per point of natural armor bonus gained, which must remain inside the user?s body for the duration of the technique (minimum 2).
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what I came up with before quitting and going in a different direction.

For the Beastmaster:
Frenzy + Animal Aspect = Animal Hybrid Transformation Super technique.

For the Blinkstrike:
Evasive Techniques based on the Blinkstrike stance.
A training that gives the user a miss chance based on the Blinkstrike Stance's blinking.

For the Elementalist:
Training: Blue Fire, Training: Black Lightning, Etc. : Requires Rage of the Elements. Creates a more condensed hybrid elemental type that can be created with it's own special ninjutsu effects.

For the Genjutsu Master:
Ninjutsu: Hide in Shadows - Requires Hide in Plain Sight, allows the user to enter his own shadow to hide in and teleport from Shadow to Shadow.

For the Ninja Operations Counter:

Tenketsu Freeze techniques.
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