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Chakra Scalpel Weaponmaster?

 
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TheTrulyAvaricious
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Chakra Scalpel Weaponmaster? Reply with quote

I was just wanting to check whether you can take Weaponmaster levels with the chakra scalpel ability, in the Med Specialist class? I believe its possible, seeing as you can with the Chidori, but would like a clarification.
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TheTrulyAvaricious
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can.
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Jensik
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirShadow wrote:
You can.
But why would you? At it's greatest potential, a chakra scalpel can only deal 2d6+3 damage, plus 1d10 on a crit, and that requires the Reverse Doctor feat, two levels of Exarch, and nine levels of Medical Specialist. At this same level (CL 15), a Med Specialist with Taijutsu Master or an actual weapon (not recommended because you'll need your hands free) deal superior damage with less investment and a higher BAB.

Or if you're doing it just for flavor you can just ignore me and do it anyway. Knock yourself out.
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Reznor
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You get touch attack with all your attacks, and can use Exarch's abilities to strike 60 feet away. And there are other sources of bonus damage.
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Jensik
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, they're touch attacks which are much less useful in ND20 thanks to Class Defense bonuses and Avoidance Maneuvers. Arm of Justice can let you attack from 30 feet, which is nice, but easily countered by... well, movement.

So let's say you make it to level 20. You're Dedicated 3/Med Spec 9/Exarch 3/Weapon Master 5. Congrats. Assuming a Dex higher than 16, you've got a BAB of only 14, and even with weapon specialization you can't get your base damage higher than 2d6+5. Why? No weapon seals. Which means no enhancement bonuses to attack or damage, much less any of the other really nice bonuses you could obtain. Sure you can use Taijutsu techniques, but you need to be saving your chakra for healing. Healing is damned expensive.

So yeah, with Speed Rank 10 you can deal a theoretical maximum of 280 damage with a full attack, assuming all max damage sneak attack crits. Meanwhile a Shinobi Swordsman has double your attack bonus, more attacks than you do, and is matching your theoretical maximum with a single swing of his +5 dark iron fullblade (two if he rolls bad). And your Elementalist friend is dealing the same damage in an attack action against a dozen foes.

Enjoy.
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TheTrulyAvaricious
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Truthfully, its for my friend, who has decided to hook onto our group. She's playing the Medic, much to the relief of every other player, and wanted a way to not be just a healbot.

I'd also like to point out that you use you Wisdom bonus with Chakra Scalpels, not Strength or Dex.

Also, what would be better then? She's playing up to ECL 30, like the rest of the group, so she went for Ded Hero 3/Med Specialist 10/Exarch 5/Weaponmaster 7/Exemplar 5. I've not checked, but I believe there's enough feats there to grant her access to those classes.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe someone here made a similar version, but my medical players love this one here. Costs are a bit higher in my game (as many know) so feel free to balance it for your game.


14. Chakra-Enjintou Shouten (Chakra Scalpel Focus)
Chakra Control (Medical; Requires Akiresuken Juushou) [A-Rank;Rank10]
Learn DC: 27; Perform DC: 27; Time: attack; Components: C, M; Range: Melee Touch; Target: Self; Duration: 1round per level; SaveThrows: None; ChakraCost: 12

To properly execute this technique, the user must have his chakra scalpel activated, and use his chakra scalpel expertise ability. Once that is done, the user may channel more offensive chakra in the scalpel, and cause severe injury to the victim. When he uses this technique the user's chakra scalpel damage increases by one increment in addition to a 2d6 damage bonus.
Mastery: Each step of mastery increases the damage done by +1.
Third Step Mastery: the 2d6damage bonus is replaced by a 2d8damage bonus.
Fifth Step Mastery: the 2d8damage bonus is replaced by a 2d10damage bonus.
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cmkawasaki
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jensik wrote:

So let's say you make it to level 20. You're Dedicated 3/Med Spec 9/Exarch 3/Weapon Master 5. Congrats. Assuming a Dex higher than 16, you've got a BAB of only 14, and even with weapon specialization you can't get your base damage higher than 2d6+5. Why? No weapon seals. Which means no enhancement bonuses to attack or damage, much less any of the other really nice bonuses you could obtain. Sure you can use Taijutsu techniques, but you need to be saving your chakra for healing. Healing is damned expensive.


Do I hear a Scalpel Amplifying ring that provides a Chakra Scalpel with Weapon Seals, like the one for Soul Edge? Or maybe an altercation to Chakra Gauntlets? A GM can make those things a reality.

To avoid being a Healbot, alternatively you might suggest Way of the Master to her. I had a player (Jensik) pull that one off rather well, if I say so myself.

Also, it isn't unbalanced or unfeasible to make a Stance that adds +1d6 damage to the Chakra Scalpel effects, around the same level and cost as the stance that Hokojutsu adds it for weapons (Of course, you still lag behind the weapon users). More usefully might be the Str or Dex damage that your scalpels can do.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or just use Yabuki Dachi... then they're 3d6+7 plus 2d10 on a crit (assuming you took chakra scalpel overchannel), still not AMAZING but pretty darn reliable when not Sneak Attacking (which should be most of the time).

Also, not sure if this counts for anything but at one point Frankto okayed the concept of Chakra Gauntlets passing their seals onto Chakra Scalpels in Pride Before the Fall, might have required Thorium? Can't really remember.

By then I had dropped the idea of Sayuki fighting much in melee so I never made use of it, but it's something... maybe.
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Jensik
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheTrulyAvaricious wrote:
I'd also like to point out that you use you Wisdom bonus with Chakra Scalpels, not Strength or Dex.

You can use Dex or Int for attack with the Reverse Doctor feat and up to +3 of Dex or Int for damage (which you don't get at all from Wisdom).

But yes, a Dex based Taijutsu master using Kyuushojutsu synergizes very well with Medical Specialist. Focus your two main attributes as Dexterity and Constitution and you'll be better for it. (Don't neglect Int, though, you'll need it to learn the medical techniques)

And yes, most of the problems with a scalpel based fighter can be alleviated with homebrewed content. I simply prefer to stick to core rules when trying to compare builds for what should be obvious reasons.
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TheTrulyAvaricious
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Currently, we've changed things to Dedicated 3/Medical Specialist 10/Exarch 5/Sacred Fist 10/Exalted One 2, for a 30 level ECL, hoping to start with Wisdom high and never look back. Accompanying it, we have Skilled to keep the skill points high, and Will over Flesh, so her chakra keeps nice and high for all the high costing healing techs.

Any pointers/recommendations are welcome.
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Reznor
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jensik wrote:
Yes, they're touch attacks which are much less useful in ND20 thanks to Class Defense bonuses and Avoidance Maneuvers. Arm of Justice can let you attack from 30 feet, which is nice, but easily countered by... well, movement.

So let's say you make it to level 20. You're Dedicated 3/Med Spec 9/Exarch 3/Weapon Master 5. Congrats. Assuming a Dex higher than 16, you've got a BAB of only 14, and even with weapon specialization you can't get your base damage higher than 2d6+5. Why? No weapon seals. Which means no enhancement bonuses to attack or damage, much less any of the other really nice bonuses you could obtain. Sure you can use Taijutsu techniques, but you need to be saving your chakra for healing. Healing is damned expensive.

So yeah, with Speed Rank 10 you can deal a theoretical maximum of 280 damage with a full attack, assuming all max damage sneak attack crits. Meanwhile a Shinobi Swordsman has double your attack bonus, more attacks than you do, and is matching your theoretical maximum with a single swing of his +5 dark iron fullblade (two if he rolls bad). And your Elementalist friend is dealing the same damage in an attack action against a dozen foes.

Enjoy.




1.
Don't like your build.
Med Spec 9/Exarch 3 is overkill
Quote:
Medical Specialist abilities
Each level in the exarch class stacks with levels in the Medical Specialist advanced class
for the purpose of determining chakra scalpel damage and the ability to discharge or
concentrate on MedicalNinjutsu techniques.


Med Spec 5/Exarch 4 or something is better.

2. Dedicated 3? Meh.
Strong 3 can get you based attack, and you can add Melee Smash.
(If it doesn't go to thrown weapons, then the basis is melee, not str-based.)

3.
Quote:
Sure you can use Taijutsu techniques, but you need to be saving your chakra for healing. Healing is damned expensive.

You've got a few options here.

If you go Wis x, Int or Dex 16, you can WoF it, and be a high chakra character.

Or, you can settle for being a bit behind a speced out meleer in melee, but you have a very viable other function.

You also don't have to use Taijutsu to do reliable DPS, you can just use it for if you do get into a confrontation where you're needed as a meleer and burst damage them.

4.
Quote:

So yeah, with Speed Rank 10
Using Dexterous Genius? Good idea, if that's what you are suggesting.

5. It's a cool idea. He wants to be a scalpel badass. If you have another build that does that better, sure. But if you're suggesting "Just get a weapon" then you're ignoring the concept.

Quote:
Currently, we've changed things to Dedicated 3/Medical Specialist 10/Exarch 5/Sacred Fist 10/Exalted One 2, for a 30 level ECL, hoping to start with Wisdom high and never look back. Accompanying it, we have Skilled to keep the skill points high, and Will over Flesh, so her chakra keeps nice and high for all the high costing healing techs.

Any pointers/recommendations are welcome.

Have a Dex or Int of at least 16, even if maxing Wisdom.
Why all the SF and EO?

Consider Weapon Finesse (purely for prereqs...), Pressure Secrets, Dexterous Genius also.

30 levels?

If Int is your prefered:
Strong 5/Weapon Master 7/Med 5/Exemplar 2/Exarch 4/Shade 7 (order chosed to max pre-epic BAB)
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Melee Smash? To Chakra Scalpel attacks?

Heh. What a kidder.
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cmkawasaki
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheTrulyAvaricious wrote:
Currently, we've changed things to Dedicated 3/Medical Specialist 10/Exarch 5/Sacred Fist 10/Exalted One 2, for a 30 level ECL, hoping to start with Wisdom high and never look back. Accompanying it, we have Skilled to keep the skill points high, and Will over Flesh, so her chakra keeps nice and high for all the high costing healing techs.

Any pointers/recommendations are welcome.


I think you shouldn't need 10 levels of Medical Specialist, and I think that Sacred Fist and Exalted One should be moved forward in the progression.

Something like for the 20th level:
Dedicated 3 / Medical Specialist 5 / Sacred Fist 5 / Exarch 5 / Exalted One 2

Gives you a BAB +12, Fort +14, Ref +12, and Will +17, with 13 Class Defense. You are... totally not going to make it as a meleeist that hits multiple times.

However, unlike most Shinobi Swordsmen / Meleeists, your Base saves and Defense are through the roof. With Speed Rank 5 and a high wisdom and a somewhat good dexterity, you easily keep your defensive abilities of not being hit to expert levels.

I would use Faith at this point to focus on ray attack styles of attacking.

Alternatively, you could use:
Dedicated 3 / Medical Specialist 8 / Sacred Fist 5 / Exarch 2 / Exalted One 2

This gives you a BAB of +14, Fort +14, Ref +12, and Will +18, and the same 13 Class defense. At the cost of losing most of your exarch abilities until Epic Levels (But still can have Medical Miracle, for dead revival!) You also heal in rounds for your healing, versus half-minutes, which comes in handy. Note you can still complete the classes involved in Epic Levels - but at that point, classes have little bearing on your general build.

But this build grants Wisdom to defense, Evasion, Wisdom to attack in Sacred Fist Stance, works well with Pressure Point Secrets, and makes your character a living tank of sorts to all three forms of saves.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankto wrote:
Melee Smash? To Chakra Scalpel attacks?

Heh. What a kidder.
Just says Melee.
You can make the restriction you are implying canon if you wish, but nothing in the d20M or Nd20 source book says otherwise.
If it doesn't go to thrown weapons, then the rationale is melee, not strength.

I don't see any more problem with a strong hero talent modifying a non-strength related thing than I do Fast Hero modifying non-Dex based things, like Movement Speed.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Melee Smash doesn't apply to melee touch attacks, the same way it doesn't apply to spells and techniques that deal damage and have a Touch range.
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Senshen
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I agree. I mean Melee Smash in my mind, implies greater force when hitting. However there isn't much force exerted when your touching someone.
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Reznor
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I understand the rationale for not letting it apply.

However, "The Strong hero has an innate talent that increases melee damage", indicates to me that it is a skill-based thing, not a muscular power-based thing, and this touch attack is weapon damage.
And I'd prefer to not enforce an overly narrow view of what strength entails, given how broad other stats definitions are (like, Dex and even Con and Wis)

Quote:

Melee Smash doesn't apply to melee touch attacks, the same way it doesn't apply to spells and techniques that deal damage and have a Touch range.

It doesn't apply to a thrown weapon, the same way it doesn't apply to a touch range spell: It's not melee weapon damage.
This melee touch attack is melee weapon damage.

Is it just the touch attack aspect that you believe disqualifies it, or the lack of strength mod to damage?

You're free to rule Chakra Scalpel how you want (like you did with Jyuuken and did not do with Amatsu no Karada) or change/clarify Melee Smash in Naruto d20, but that's my interpretation as per d20 Modern RAW.
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keksmuzh
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly, Weaponmaster really isn't worth taking anymore...period. You probably have weapon focus already in your melee build by the time you can take your first level in it, and the rest of those abilities are either easily gained through whatever melee class you were already taking. On top of that, the saves are terrible (minus fort which is the least useful in this system), and you're probably better off diversifying your skill set versus gaining a small bonus to peak melee damage.

When it was a 5 level class, it was worth jumping into for those who wanted a few more melee buffs (I used it a lot for sword savant builds).

Pressure Secrets or (depending on your build) a Hyuuga with White Knight levels are really the only ways to build an effective melee medic.

Avaricious: if your friend is looking for a way to be a non-healbot medic (which is the ultimate issue here), I highly recommend a blaster medic or other tech medic. Int, Con, then Wis or Cha (go cha if she wants to mix Gen). Fewer MAD problems by far, plenty of chakra, better skill overlap, and flexibility based on tech selection.

Dedicated 3/Shinobi Adept 3/Medic 7/Nin Scout 10/Elementalist 7

First few levels are obvious, with the Adept levels mainly to get some extra chakra and Evasion (never a bad idea in this system). Why Ninja Scout? It gives you a pretty decent save progression, def progression, and BAB (just in case), some solid utility skills, Improved Evasion (in this context) and Quicken Technique. You'll be more survivable, won't lose much in the way of chakra, and distance yourself as much as possible from the Healbot role. Elementalist is obvious as well, and while I'm not always sold on going the full 7, in this context it makes sense and gives you access to even more quickened techniques per day.
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TheTrulyAvaricious
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

keksmuzh wrote:
Frankly, Weaponmaster really isn't worth taking anymore...period. You probably have weapon focus already in your melee build by the time you can take your first level in it, and the rest of those abilities are either easily gained through whatever melee class you were already taking. On top of that, the saves are terrible (minus fort which is the least useful in this system), and you're probably better off diversifying your skill set versus gaining a small bonus to peak melee damage.

When it was a 5 level class, it was worth jumping into for those who wanted a few more melee buffs (I used it a lot for sword savant builds).

Pressure Secrets or (depending on your build) a Hyuuga with White Knight levels are really the only ways to build an effective melee medic.

Avaricious: if your friend is looking for a way to be a non-healbot medic (which is the ultimate issue here), I highly recommend a blaster medic or other tech medic. Int, Con, then Wis or Cha (go cha if she wants to mix Gen). Fewer MAD problems by far, plenty of chakra, better skill overlap, and flexibility based on tech selection.

Dedicated 3/Shinobi Adept 3/Medic 7/Nin Scout 10/Elementalist 7

First few levels are obvious, with the Adept levels mainly to get some extra chakra and Evasion (never a bad idea in this system). Why Ninja Scout? It gives you a pretty decent save progression, def progression, and BAB (just in case), some solid utility skills, Improved Evasion (in this context) and Quicken Technique. You'll be more survivable, won't lose much in the way of chakra, and distance yourself as much as possible from the Healbot role. Elementalist is obvious as well, and while I'm not always sold on going the full 7, in this context it makes sense and gives you access to even more quickened techniques per day.


I like the premise, but her words are, and quoted: "I want to mainly focus on healing, but also not be completely useless in combat." This is partly why I favor the Sacred Fist and Exalted One classes in the build, adding focus into the Wisdom score, which we'd make even more useful with the addition of Pressure Secrets into the mix. It also prevents her from being completely levelled in close-combat, along with as has been pointed out, the pretty crackin' defenses.
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keksmuzh
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At that point I guess it's a choice between being a melee save tank who can heal, or (in this case) being a medic that can throw and take a couple punches, since that dictates the investment into medic vs your melee class of choice (in this case Sacred Fist). Then again, ECL 30 means you can probably do both to an extent...
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TheTrulyAvaricious
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is true. With enough levels, her chakra is going to be pretty high, and while she'll need most of it for healing, with enough meta-feats she can get a lot of use out of Efficient Technique, I believe.
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