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So making an Epic Hyuga and want some advice

 
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Kyrone619
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:25 am    Post subject: So making an Epic Hyuga and want some advice Reply with quote

So I have the premise of having EXP for a level 26, so I was thinking about making a LV 24 character with the +2 ECL for being a Hyuga.

As I always build characters to be viable as I play them rather than pure end game power gaming even if we start at epic levels I had planned on building the character, Fast 3/Dedicated 5, White Knight 3 then going all out Taijutsu Master. So I would get the full 10 and 3 levels in epic taijutsu Master hitting my 24 and with the ELC+2 having the Exp of a 26 character.

I was looking for some advice with building this. We have a 40 point buy so I am mostly going for Dex/Wis and letting my Con and Cha suffer for it.

So far I have definitely decided on Will over flesh and the two weapon fighting tree, as well as getting in superior combat martial arts early as I do not go into Taijutsu master till later.

On the epic technique side of things, Shukuchi and Shinbatsu no Souen are two definites.

We are using a pathfinder feat progression, so feats are gained every odd level so suggestions are very welcome.

Technique wise I know having a full Taijutsu build will leave me quite open, so I had planned on being a water user from the start and abusing the hidden mist jutsu with byakugan so only I have easy sight.

So far with full enhancements, level increases and shinobi drugs I am looking at a high point of 56 AC and on a full attack action consisting of 18 touch attacks in Jyuken second stance, so roughly 36d8+450 (unless I calculated the bonuses per hit wrong and this is using Shinbatsu no Souen).

*edit*
Already seen I can add an additional two attacks to that full round with perfect two-weapon fighting
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no such thing as two-weapon fighting with unarmed attacks, because there is no such thing as an off-hand unarmed attack for the trained attacker. If you want to use TWF, you'll need an actual weapon.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, if you really want to make that many Jyuuken - Nidan Dachi attacks, make 361 palms, it'd be an epic technique, but oh so worth it.
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TheTrulyAvaricious
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

361 palms would be nothing short of sexy.
I'm also intrigued how you'd get 18 touch attacks in a full round action... I doubt you'd get more than 6, although admittedly, never really done a Hyuuga build. And two-weapon fighting definitely wouldn't work for jyuuken.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I have a write up for said technique, if you are uncomfortable in creating it yourself. If you, or anyone else on the forums, would like to see it, feel free to PM me, I'll send the link to it after I get off work.
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Kyrone619
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankto wrote:
There is no such thing as two-weapon fighting with unarmed attacks, because there is no such thing as an off-hand unarmed attack for the trained attacker. If you want to use TWF, you'll need an actual weapon.


Really? I did a bit of research into Wizards of the coast and the D20 Modern SRD and I thought it seemed to say you could in the FAQ section on both; but seeing as this is your book and you have probably spent a lot longer researching this than me, then it would be official that you cannot do this in Naruto D20.

So if we made a house rule that you were allowed to do this in Naruto D20, the forums might not be the right place to discuss how to power game this....

Originally I had four attacks, all the feats up to perfect two weapon fighting which is eight attacks, a further two attacks from speed ranks as I had taken epic technique training to learn up to 10 which is now ten attacks and using the epic technique that allows you to make two full round attack actions meant I could do 20 attacks in a round; so much for that plan.....

What about if I used a chakra gauntlet? would I still be able to use Jyuken? and be able to apply myself to two weapon fighting? or would that negate the attack increases from Superior combat martial arts and Taijutsu master aswell?

If I were to make a 361 technique I would probably make it a Fort or death and if they survived the fort they would then take quite a bit of damage. Kind of like Igeki Hissatsu with 361 points sealed.

I was also thinking about ways to powergame AC, maybe in post 20 taking levels in Exemplar to get the insight bonus to AC, could also get improved evasion that way rather than taking levels in Epic Taijutsu Master.
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kyrone619 wrote:
Really? I did a bit of research into Wizards of the coast and the D20 Modern SRD and I thought it seemed to say you could in the FAQ section on both; but seeing as this is your book and you have probably spent a lot longer researching this than me, then it would be official that you cannot do this in Naruto D20.


Yes, really. D&D:
Quote:
This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.


d20 Modern:
Quote:
The Martial Artist attacks with either fist interchangeably, or even with elbows, knees, and feet. This means that the Martial Artist may even make unarmed strikes when his or her hands are full, and there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a Martial Artist striking unarmed.


Naruto d20:
Quote:
This means that the Taijutsu Master may even make unarmed strikes when his or her hands are full, and there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for striking unarmed.


No off-hand attack means no Two-Weapon Fighting. If you're houseruling it, then that's your prerogative.
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankto is only partly correct. Using unarmed attacks with your 'off-hand' do exist. However, in order to use an unarmed attack with your off-hand you have to be using an actual weapon in one hand. So you can attack with an unarmed attack with your primary hand and an off-hand attack with your dagger. Or you can attack with a dagger in your primary hand and an off-hand attack with your unarmed attack. But you cannot use unarmed attack with both your primary hand and off-hand.

I know it's confusing, but those are the rules.

To further make things confusing: You know those sentences Frankto highlighted? It means Monks using a weapon in their primary hand can make 'off-hand' attacks with their unarmed strike at no penalty still following all other rules of two-weapon fighting.

Don't believe me? Please educate yourself.
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Kyrone619
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah I see, looking at my own research materials:
Code:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nngc?Two-weapon-fighting-unarmed
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41826
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mlsh?Two-weapon-fighting-and-just-unarmed-strikes


These are all forum junkies, so they are not really a reliable source so having more respect for Frankto than any of these strangers I checked the 3.0 FAQ where he got the quote, to my horror he was on the ball, but then I checked the 3.5 FAQ and that is where these came up and where all the forum junkies were getting their opinions and I started to realise, just how it is worded! English is a very tricky language, check the following FAQ answers from the same source as yours frankto for 3.5:

Code:
[b]The description of the flurry of blows ability says
there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand
weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean,
exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to
flurry attacks?[/b]

Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry
for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike
ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack,
even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees
and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra
attacks, or both.
The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t
use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact
wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and
no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists.
When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk
suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting
(see Table 8–10 in the PH) and the monk adds only half her
Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed
strike hits.
weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it
can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For
example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat
and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and
decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a
base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry,
the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2
flurry, +2 Strength). An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so
the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry
and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks,
each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry
are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to
damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s
Strength bonus to damage (+1).

If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the
flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry
(in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an
unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with
the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available
for the flurry and vice versa.

To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack
whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if
any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s
full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains
only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a


Code:
[b]Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine
a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her
penalties on attack rolls?[/b]

A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other
character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand
weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon
fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.
For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally
make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of
blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any
special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she
wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to
accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8
penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light
weapon in her off hand).
If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only
a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off
hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand
during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks,
each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to
be with her off-hand weapon.
A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can
make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows.
Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three
off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five
attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any
weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also
has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her
flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged
attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her
primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer
a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this:
+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with
shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand


So unless I miss-understanding this, both seem to imply that an unarmed strike counts as a light weapon, meaning with Combat Martial arts a character should be able to make a primary and off-hand attack when using Taijutsu and count as armed ect.

The Text actually does not say he cannot make unarmed off-hand attacks, but reading more like he is so skilled it is not like his off-hand attcks are an counted off hand, meaning he does not lose strength bonus if he uses his, well anything from a Taijutsu Master/Monk/Martial Artist, even a phallus slaps would still get his +5 strength to damage as opposed to the str mod halved.

Let me further explain with a quote from the D20 Modern SRD:
Code:
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except that an unarmed attack deals nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light melee weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on). The following exceptions to normal melee rules apply to unarmed attacks.

Attacking with Two Weapons: If the character wields a second weapon in his or her off hand, the character can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very difficult, however—the character takes a –6 penalty on the regular attack or attacks with his or her primary hand and a –10 penalty on the attack with his or her off hand. A character can reduce these penalties in two ways.
1.If the off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

2.The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.


reading the quote from the martial artist that you, I think you are misinterpreting it, it says there is no off-hand attack not that he CANNOT make an off hand attack, which more reads that he is skilled at using BOTH hands which is further supported by the 3.5 quote at the top and my own ramblings before the last quote.

So all would imply it is possible to use unarmed attacks with two weapon fighting, even though at first glance the text would imply that you cannot do this but what it is saying is they are so skilled they do not count as using it off-handed for the purpose of halving their strength mod, they are so skilled at using their whole body it is like they are not using an off-hand, although they still suffer the normal two-weapon fighting penalties.

Sir Shadows sources, that he humorously linked with "please educate yourself", also support that you can use a primary and off-hand attack two-weapon fighting unarmed.

Code:
The monk class offers a potent subcategory of unarmed attack. The class provides Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, but the monk class offers some additional benefits for when fighting without weapons:
• A monk's unarmed strikes can be treated as either manufactured or natural weapons when applying spells or effects that enhance either manufactured or natural weapons. For example, either a magic weapon spell or a magic fang spell can enhance a monk's unarmed attacks.

This allows a monk access to all manner of weapon enhancements for her unarmed strikes. For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage.
• A monk can make unarmed strikes with either hand interchangeably or with a knee, elbow, or foot.

A monk does not suffer an off-hand penalty when attacking unarmed. That is, the monk does not take any attack penalty and gains her full Strength bonus to damage (if any) no matter which appendage the monk uses to make the unarmed attack.

This rule doesn't exempt monks from two-weapon combat penalties (see below).
• A monk's unarmed strike damage increases with levels in the class.

A monk uses the unarmed strike damage entry for her monk level on Table 3-10 in the Player's Handbook (or on Table 3-11 for a Small or Large monk) instead of the normal unarmed strike damage for the character's size (see Part One).


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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, look, the two-weapon fighting feat requires you to have a weapon. Wanna know how to abuse that? Primary Weapon Fullblade, secondary weapon unarmed attack (kick, headbutt, etc etc) you'd get (assuming full BaB classes all the way to level 20) 4 primary attacks with a 2d8+str*1.5 and 3 attacks with a 2d6+full str weapon (since there are no off hand penalties with unarmed strikes) that's like dual wielding a greatsword along with your fullblade, but without the insane penalties and still getting your full strength modifier to damage. See where that would get crazy?

If that isn't enough, please read this

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What this says is that you can use two-weapon fighting with unarmed attacks and any other weapon you can use in one hand.


For the record, the fullblade is not one of those.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The entry for unarmed attack under Taijutsu Master says you can make attacks with either Fist, Elbows, Knees, or Feet. Which allows you to make unarmed strikes while your hands are full. So, what would stop me, other than a GM ruling (because they don't want someone effectively dual wielding a fullblade and a great sword), on kicking my opponent for my attacks granted by TWF?
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two weapon fighting is something you do with two weapons you can do with one hand. If you use both hands on a weapon and start kicking, that's not two-weapon fighting. Rules as writte doesn't allow it (and thinking about the logistics from a trained martial artist's point of view, neither would I).

For the same reason you can't punch and kick in rapid succession at the same time, you can't swing a two-handed axe and kick at the same time.
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Kyrone619
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think my point was missed inside the wall of text I posted.

The quotes say you CAN dual wield unarmed attacks, even in the link Hito put, which is the same as the links I used and the same as Sir Shadow, in these as well as the 3.5 FAQ from Wizards of the coast it clearly says you CAN.

Specifically with Taijutsu Master/Monk/Martial Artist, it says "there is no such thing as an off-hand attack unarmed", specifically this is referring to the rule for two-weapon fighting, your off hand weapon only gets HALF strength but when fighting unarmed these three classes get their FULL strength as they are not classed as Off-hand, however they still suffer the same -2/-2 for using two light weapons (THEIR FISTS), which the official rulings use this as an example in the 3.5 FAQ, The Pathfinder FAQ and assumingly D20 modern as Martial Artist is worded the same as Monk.

All of this is in the links and quotes I posted, Sir Shadow posted, Hito Hyuga posted and even from the same sources Frankto was quoting.

It would be like saying you cannot use TWF with two daggers, it has to be a sword and a dagger ect.

Quote:
In short, what I am saying is, you can two-weapon fighting(TWF) Unarmed, read all the links and quotes everyone has posted.
Specifically with Monk/Martial Artist/Taijutsu Master their extra attacks from TWF unarmed do not count as off-hand so they get FULL strength bonus, where as normally you only get HALF
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Frankto
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, let me clarify this for you, because this is clearly not getting to you.

Knees, fists, elbows, and feet are all considered one weapon, and not individual weapons. You take no damage penalty for using your knee or your feet or your fists because you are equally skilled in using all of them. Combat Martial Arts and Improved Unarmed Strike don't make your fists a weapon, it makes your entire body a weapon.

You only have one body. You only have one weapon. If you want to do two weapon fighting, get a dagger and your unarmed attack.

Otherwise, any GM who sees this and thinks, "Oh, so this probably means the monk can dual wield two light weapons that deal 2d10 damage at full Strength bonus!" and finds this perfectly balanced should probably relinquish his or her seat to somebody with a better sense of game balance.

So in other words, no, you can't dual wield unarmed strikes for the same reason you can't dual wield natural attacks. And the Sage agrees with me.

EDIT: And to further extrapolate from these rules (that is, that there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk attacking unarmed), the unarmed attacks would by default need to be the primary attack, and the held weapon, whatever it is, the off-hand attack. Also to be noted is that Flurry of Blows is the significant element here and that's what makes the monk such a good TWF fighter—not because it has two light weapons that deal 2d10 damage, because that's insane and counterintuitive—but because Flurry of Blows (which, by the way, would only affect ONE mode of attack, even if you wield two monk weapons or a monk weapon and your unarmed attack, for the same reason two Weapons of Speed don't stack—not necessarily a good one, but whatever) allows you to retain your FULL Strength bonus to damage even when using a weapon in your off-hand, which DOES apply to Two-Weapon Fighting.
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Last edited by Frankto on Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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SirShadow
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You misquoted the source I linked you to. Yes, the monk does not take penalties when making an unarmed attack as an 'off-hand' but he HAS to be wielding a weapon in his primary hand, and the primary hand takes penalties as the rules for two weapon fighting state even though the 'off-hand' doesn't. You cannot dual wield 'unarmed attacks'.
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Kyrone619
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to be falling on death ears here, I read my own links again and see I was wrong about the half strength point for Monks specifically on TWF, what it meant was can apply full strength to any body part for a primary attack, I concede that point most graciously as I only part quoted from my last one without seeing in the original it mentioned that you can TWF unarmed but the additional attacks from TWF still suffer half str, as per the normal TWF rules.

If you read the quotes it says you can TWF Unarmed as unarmed is a light weapon, the text that people are confusing it with and it appeared for a brief moment even I did, as I had assumed the full strength to off-hand included the normal TWF penalties. I had confused this with the rules for Off-hand, the part I misunderstood was as below:

Code:
off hand

A character's weaker or less dexterous hand (usually the left). An attack made with the off hand incurs a -4 penalty on the attack roll. In addition, only one-half of a character's Strength bonus may be added to damage dealt with a weapon held in the off hand.


A monk/Taijutsu Master/Martial Artist does not suffer this penalty as there is no such think as an off-hand attack for these three classes UNARMED, normally a character with a sword in his left and right hand even when attacking with just the left hand would incur these penalties, unless using the ambidexterity feat from 3.5 or the trait from pathfinder.

An unarmed attack is considered a light weapon, so these classes can make additional attacks with TWF but incurring the normal penalties of TWF but not the penalties of an Off-hand (a separate rule) attack for unarmed, which is what the text, "This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" is specifically referring to not TWF as stated by the developers, which I have posted already.

See all quotes and check yourselves; In no text ANYWHERE does it say, "You cannot dual wield unarmed attacks", and the developers even use a Monk stacking TWF and Flurry of Blows UNARMED as an example answer to a question in the official 3.5 FAQ. See above.

If you do not believe me it would only take a few seconds to google: "you cannot dual wield unarmed d20", if you think that you cannot which you will discover you can, or you can google "can you dual wield only unarmed d20" or even better yet, read the 3.5 FAQ where I got my quotes from which confirm this: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

If Fourth edition they even changed unarmed attacks to be listed as a one-handed weapon to stop this confusion caused by how they worded the text.

However if you do not have the knowledge of English to understand that you have a misinterpretation of the text and the way it is written and you refuse to read the official answers from the developers, linked, which state you can TWF unarmed because you are so focused on your opinion that you refuse to check any material, then it is not really my place to convince you that you have created an opinion that goes against the official source material, the official FAQs on the subject and the online D&D community, all of which disagree with your opinion on the subject; that is your right and you are free to do so.

Any further attempt by me after this post to do so would be ridiculous.
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black_fox9653
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am kind of curious what quotes from DnD, and even more rediculously Pathfinder, have to do with something that is based of D20 Modern?
They are very similar, but there are still very noticable differences between the two.
Also as for the actual 'discussion' at hand, seeming that this is located in the NarutoD20 section of the forum, I personally am inclined to side with the creator of said system as to how something works within its rules.
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Hito Hyuga
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

black_fox9653 wrote:
I am kind of curious what quotes from DnD, and even more rediculously Pathfinder, have to do with something that is based of D20 Modern?
They are very similar, but there are still very noticable differences between the two.
Also as for the actual 'discussion' at hand, seeming that this is located in the NarutoD20 section of the forum, I personally am inclined to side with the creator of said system as to how something works within its rules.


Pathfinder, yeah, that is way out there on the scale of relevant but you have to have noticed by now that the rules between D&D and D20 modern actually aren't different other than a few mechanical changes (wealth system, action points are core for modern, spells are FX abilities) but the rulings for feats have not changed, so D&D feat rulings still stand. Though, I've yet to see anything that would indicate you could TWF with just unarmed, but the person who started this thread just doesn't want to accept that.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's about as much as I care to discuss that. And we move on!
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Traenix
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankto wrote:

You only have one body. You only have one weapon. If you want to do two weapon fighting, get a dagger and your unarmed attack.


Lol, and that's the moment he says "What if I'm Pain and I have several bodies ?". Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking as an amateur martial artist, I will say that to me, the idea of using two hands is no more weird than the idea of using two daggers, and both are really not at all weird. Also, it is more than feasable to attack with interchanging kicks and punches within six seconds. The question is, is this considered the same weapon, or is it considered two weapons. Obviously the gm has the final say, but I don't feel that you can get any more strikes with any more accuracy wielding two daggers than wielding two fists. If anything, you can strike more quickly with two fists than two normal weapons.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right fist, left fist, legs, knees and elbows are the same single weapon.

Of course in reality you can punch and kick within 1 second, but D&D/D20/Nd20 aren't reality.

There are rules.
Thoses rules are necessary.
If you want pure realistic simulation, use GURPS (which is excellent).

And even in the manga :
In the first books characters didn't often multi hit. Then they leveled up and they became able to do it.

Don't forget Naruto d20 is a game.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He, yeah. I just felt like adding my two ryo.

Obviously overlord Frankto has the final say here.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an MMA fighter it is funny reading how you guys interoperate an attack, how I assume, left then right, how you assume, your body flies at them and crashing into them like a slam attack Very Happy

we have gone so far off topic from the whole Hyuga advise and gotten way too lost in this TWF stuff
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, since you want to bring martial arts into this...

Allow me to clarify something here: I have 12 years of practicing (and sometimes teaching) various martial arts, unarmed and armed, until my body quit on me. I can tell you that, especially as an MMA fighter (which I've studied but never had the chance to practice), if you treat each fist, elbow, knee and foot as individual entities, you will never, ever do well. At any one time when you make an attack, you're using at the very least two to three other attacking limbs both to construct an adequate guard and deliver the attack effectively.

Here's my personal review of what you've just said to me. Be warned, this is pretty specific, possibly personal stuff; take it however you will. To say that you think of your offense in terms of left then right strongly implies that you attack in very predictable patterns in the way inexperienced fighters do—or you express yourself poorly on the internet. This also tells me you like to throw this around to make waves. It's not working.

In closing, listen to your instructor, don't buy into the myth, and respect the sport. EDIT: And don't watch the Deadliest Warrior.

Source: I practiced martial arts from 5 years old all the way up to 17. It was a mishmash of shotokan karate, ju-jutsu, judo and tae kwon do (and a smidgen of Ninjutsu, which turned out to be so pompous and overbown that I couldn't walk into the dojo without cringing and quit soon after).



If you want advise on how to build a high-level Hyuuga, then it's easy. Know which stat you will be using in Melee, focus on that almost exclusively, take melee classes like Taijutsu Master, Exemplar, Shinobi Swordsman or Weaponmaster, and you will almost certainly do well. Focus primarily on having a strong melee attack over any technique.



PS: Yeah, bringing martial arts into anything and then going "herp derp" is a good way to get a rant from me. Sue me.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know all of that, I was just thinking that when using a weapon, you do that as well, and therefore, it is just as easy to use both fists left right as it is to use two weapons in each hand, left right. To me, both are equally easy/difficult/ineffective. But if we are going to have a feat that allows two weapon fighting, then it may as well work just as easily for two hands.

However, I will point out that I am only at an amateur level, having done this for only about 6 years, the first 2 of which were rather wasted due to the "class" (can't remember the technical term) that I was in.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the direction this is going

Frankto wrote:
Well, since you want to bring martial arts into this...

Allow me to clarify something here: I have 12 years of practicing (and sometimes teaching) various martial arts, unarmed and armed, until my body quit on me. I can tell you that, especially as an MMA fighter (which I've studied but never had the chance to practice), if you treat each fist, elbow, knee and foot as individual entities, you will never, ever do well. At any one time when you make an attack, you're using at the very least two to three other attacking limbs both to construct an adequate guard and deliver the attack effectively.


Curiously what did you injure and how? I tore my left rotator cuff in the very early days of my training, mostly because I assumed that the injury was just a general weakness in the left side so I actually trained for a year on it whilst the entire muscle was torn, a terrible terrible idea, but it did build a very high pain threshold.

Coming to the entities, you need to train each body part individually and treat them as such, you need to train to have both speed and power in your left and right sides, as people tend to favour, a good fighting can switch between either leading leg and can switch southpaw and still be just as effective, which was what I had previously meant. When fighting I will actually move inside their guard, grapple and use my knees, elbow and even forehead to deliver attacks (which unfortunately in Karate tournaments you are not allowed to ground and pound >=/ never stops us in sparring though).

Frankto wrote:
Here's my personal review of what you've just said to me. Be warned, this is pretty specific, possibly personal stuff; take it however you will. To say that you think of your offense in terms of left then right strongly implies that you attack in very predictable patterns in the way inexperienced fighters do—or you express yourself poorly on the internet. This also tells me you like to throw this around to make waves. It's not working.


Pretty much comes back to what I said before, you have to train your entire body and how you train each part is different, you cannot just do one global exercise for your entire body, I wish, would save most of the 2 1/2 hours that is my regular routine.

True most first time tournament fighters are taught very simple combinations of three blows for the purpose of point scoring, which is a big sign of an inexperienced fighter, but if you punch a left, you coil your body for a right kick or right punch, it is very hard leading in with a left jab to then perform a left roundhouse kick, even if you are quick at jumping in with the right foot to raise your leg quick enough, against someone equally as skilled you are going to get hit hard, personally as someone jumped forwards like that I would see it as the best opportunity for a BJJ style take down.

Frankto wrote:
In closing, listen to your instructor, don't buy into the myth, and respect the sport. EDIT: And don't watch the Deadliest Warrior.


Do not watch deadliest warrior, I do enjoy K1 and UFC, but I do not even like the whole X Martial art is better than Y Martial art and A will always beat B. Even if a boxer has no kick or ground game, you still need to get him on the floor to take advantage of that weakness!

Frankto wrote:
Source: I practiced martial arts from 5 years old all the way up to 17. It was a mishmash of shotokan karate, ju-jutsu, judo and tae kwon do (and a smidgen of Ninjutsu, which turned out to be so pompous and overbown that I couldn't walk into the dojo without cringing and quit soon after).


Shotokan....... the good lovely Americanised no contact watered down variant of karate which become one of the worlds most common, a good place for most people to start building, very good to see your branched out, especially with Judo and jujitsu which covers the exact reasons why I dislike Shotokan, grapples, takedowns and locks oh my Very Happy

The first Karate I did was Shorinjiryu Kenkokan, the style that actually saved Karate in the tournaments from Kempo (kung fu for the Chinese fans), as it was full contact from the first lessons, which is something you do not do in Shotokan until very late belts from what I know of the style.

For weapons I never tried ninjutsu but I did once go to Kendo which I actually found to not even measure up to fencing, mostly down to the mind set of the students, they were all weeaboos and thought they were all Kenshin..... so never went too far with that and as a big anime fan for me to refer to someone else as a weeaboo takes A LOT. I mean due to my hair and body type I use to cosplay as Zack Fair and these guys were too much even for me


Frankto wrote:
If you want advise on how to build a high-level Hyuuga, then it's easy. Know which stat you will be using in Melee, focus on that almost exclusively, take melee classes like Taijutsu Master, Exemplar, Shinobi Swordsman or Weaponmaster, and you will almost certainly do well. Focus primarily on having a strong melee attack over any technique.


Already I have gone for a high Wis/Dex build, using feats and jutsu to take advantage of that, went Fast -> Dedicated(for faith) -> white knight -> Taijutsu Master, I will take your advice and follow into Exemplar for my post 20 levels, I was curious if Weaponmaster worked for unarmed after you said TWF did not because unarmed was not a weapon in your mind, but glad to see this one does not also follow suit.

Originally I had the idea of getting my base melee as high as possible with Taijutsu Master, Epic Taijutsu Master and superior combat martial arts, then using the additional attacks with speed ranks and the epic technique that lets you make two full round attack actions to get off as many Jyuken hits in a round as possible, good to see I was aiming right with that plan.


Frankto wrote:
PS: Yeah, bringing martial arts into anything and then going "herp derp" is a good way to get a rant from me. Sue me.


I love rants, it is why I spend any time on the internet at all, I am not going to go full 4chan level and start a superman vs goku debate but still always good to find someone with a passion and find their full on views.

Now seeing as we got some on topic stuff going again, I was thinking about Feats, now as I said we are doing a pathfinder variant (oh some guy asked why we were discussing D&D, D20 Modern and Pathfinder when this is Naruto D20. Naruto D20 is a variant from D20 modern, which is a variant from D&D and Pathfinder is alternative to 4.E for D&D and we are running a pathfinder variant of ND20, which works quite nicely, which is why those topics were relevant in mine and Frankto’s discussion).

Now I am thinking about feats to optimise the build, of course I will be trying to discover ways to get sacred bonuses to Dex/Wis (seeing as there are no god in the game how to you get this? I saw in your campaign frankto some of your players had sacred bonus to stats) mostly and Int as a third and if I can anything can help Con/Cha, str really takes a back seat here, of course I will work for +5 shinobi drugs too for inherent bonuses.

So being a pathfinder variation we get feats every odd level, so we have occupation, class feats, 1,1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19 and any bonus feats from classes. Regardless of where our personal TWF discussion went, because Wizards of the Coast said you can use it unarmed my DM has agreed that I can use it in Naruto D20, but has quite vigorously warned me not to argue with the writer of the D20 material again about his own rulings on the source material again, sort of if I ever press the issue again regardless of the outcome he will disallow it :S

So far I have been thinking Genius Nin(tai), Will over flesh, Advanced bloodline to start with, of course grabbing combat martial arts, once I can getting superior combat martial arts as I do not go into Taijutsu master until later, but I may not as Jyuken( is it Jyuken or Jyuuken? You spell it both ways in the book), gets a D6 and D8 depending on stance, eventually working in flawless form, byakugan sight, battle-ready byakugan, All seeing-eye and at higher levels getting epic techniques: Shukuchi and Shinbatsu no Souen. Depending on bonus feats I may also get dodge and defensive matrial arts.

What further feats would people suggest? Also what armour seals? I think MW gives a +1 Max Dex and there is a material for +1 max dex? Could be wrong there, I saw once somewhere said they were using chakra gauntlets with Jyuken?! Is that possible? If so what would be a good choice in weapon seal?

I had been thinking about using Weaponmaster and the improve/advanced combat martial arts feats to get a 15-20 crit ranged unarmed, but I am not too sure how to work them all in with the levels I have available, including bloodlines we have the exp of a level 25 so how many levels I take in classes are very crucial, also specifically in Naruto D20 is there a cross class limit? I once heard a rumour there was but nothing to confirm or deny this.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kyrone619 wrote:
Curiously what did you injure and how?


It's 5:35 AM, I can't sleep because tooth extraction, and this is basically as far as I'm getting in this post before I get back to it later.

I didn't injure anything, in the strictest sense; I was That Kid.

You know the one. The one that's taller than everybody in his year, maybe taller than everybody in the school, even though he's just a kid.


Yeah. It sucked being That Kid. Osgood-schlatter did my left knee in and it got so bad I could hardly walk, much less run, and it never went away no matter how many calcium supplement I chugged down or conditioning I did. And judging by the length of your post, you know how much instructors love to make you run.

TL;DR Growing up sucked.


Aaah, fuck it, let's do one more.

Quote:
True most first time tournament fighters are taught very simple combinations of three blows for the purpose of point scoring
Yeah. I f*cking hate that, and I always have, but I understand why it's there, because I always fought way, way out of my weight class whenever I entered any sort of competition (which is why I stopped real quickly).

To clarify: By the time I was 6, I was 5'4. By the time I was 14, I was 6'7. Like I said, I was That Kid.

Quote:
if you punch a left ... leading in with a left jab to then perform a left roundhouse kick ... against someone equally as skilled

That just sounds like bad form to me. I'm thinking we may not have the same mental picture of what that looks like, because I usually lead with the right and I can't picture myself pulling that off even in the Matrix.


Quote:
Even if a boxer has no kick or ground game
Anyone can break a joint lock. Not just anyone can bump your skull against whatever ground's under you quite like a boxer can if ever the tables are turned. That sounds like the least pleasant concussion/broken jaw/cheekbone scenario I can think about right now.

And it's making my jaw hurt more. Damn it.


Quote:
Shotokan....... the good lovely Americanised no contact watered down variant of karate ... good to see your branched out, especially with Judo and jujitsu ... reasons why I dislike Shotokan, grapples, takedowns
Of all the martial arts I've had the chance to practice, shotokan karate was the most fun, and Judo possibly the least, for obvious reasons. I don't know what it's like in America, but it's just what young me needed.



Quote:
wall of text

Yeah, I'm going to bed. I got cross-eyed just looking at it.
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Kyrone619
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck with the tooth pain, you are a tall bastard by the way!

I know dem feels with knee problems, had rheumatism since I was 6 myself, the main reason I took up martial arts was to strengthen the muscles near my joints.

Well even if you are leading Right, if you jabbed with your right, I doubt you would follow with a right front foot kick/round house ect is what I was getting at, you would normally always use a left hit as you have coiled your body ready for it, unless you were to move off the line blah blah blah.

For the build wise, I have planned out
Fast 3 -> Dedicated 3 -> White Knight 3 - > Taijutsu Master 10 -> Exemplar 1 (taking me to 20, paying off bloodlines on the way here ECL 22) then taking 3 more levels exemplar taking me to 23 (ELC 25), getting to where I am allowed to be level wise.

Talent wise my plan is:
(1)Evasion, (2)Bonus Feat: Defensive Martial Arts, (3)Uncanny Dodge 1
(4)Skill Empesis:Taijutsu, (5)Bonus Feat: Training , (6)Faith
(7)Gentle Knight(Wis for Tai Checks), (8)Prideful Knight, (9)Ruthless Knight(Wis Damage)
(10)(13)(16)(19)Unarmed attack 2d6, (11)Weapon Focus,(12)Bonus Feat:Battle-Ready ,
(13)Weapon Specialization, (14)Sneak Attack 1d6,
(15)Martial Arts Master, (17)Flying Kick, (18)Bonus Feat: Far-Seeing Eye ,(19) Uncanny Critical
(20)Master Strike (21)Insightful Defense, (22)Improved Evasion, (23)Supreme Melee Mastery.

Feats I have planned thus far:
Genius Nin, Will over flesh, Advanced Bloodline, combat martial arts, taijutsu adept, byakugan sight, Jounin(sense/suppress), Epic Technique Shukuchi, Epic Technique: Taijutsu: Issen Ougi - Shinbatsu no Souen.

Any suggestions on changes or additions? So Far I am seeing a highest AC of 60, Saves around the 20 mark, besides ref which is 36 at the highest, and a highest touch attack hit of 41.

Something I am confused about, In Jyuken second stance it says you can add a portion of your wisdom modifier per mastery and Ruthless knight says you can add your wisdom to damage, including Jyuken, are these stacking the wisdom mod twice? I do not believe so but worth checking.
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