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Metagamers and Rulesharks, a call for advice.

 
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demoralizer
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:20 pm    Post subject: Metagamers and Rulesharks, a call for advice. Reply with quote

Greetings everyone!

I currently run a campaign at my home, and I'm experiencing an issue with one of the players. First, I'll explain the situation so you know the context of what is happening:

In the most recent session, their evolved a situation in which one the players became responsible for reporting activity of another player to the kage. In a previous session, this same player was put on trial for treason (taking actions against the chain of command) but the charges were dismissed due to lack of character witnesses. Well, my players have a tendency to share IC information in an out of character fashion just to discuss how they are enjoying the sessions.

The issue is, this past session, I had a player who wanted to sense the motive of his comrade and another comrade who were speaking to one another. I gave him a listen check to hear the conversation, the DC for which was a 22. (They were whispering, and twenty feet away). He failed the listen check and then insisted he still should get a sense motive because the characters were acting unusual. I asked him, "how are they being unusual?" And he said "they're whispering and he (another player) has his arm around him (another player)." Then I asked, what's unusual about your comrades talking to one another and showing comradery with one another? He said because they are whispering. I then asked how he knew they were whispering if he failed a listen check? He replied: "I'm looking at them!" And I said, "and you can't hear them, so how do you know they are whispering?"

Essentially he was trying to get a leg up in game based on information he had out of character.

So my session blew up and their was a large argument about how the rules work for sense motive. I tried to explain that he would not receive the sense motive for "things feeling off" because his character has no legitimate reason to distrust the others. He insisted he did, and I said, ultimately, as the GM I am the final arbiter of the rules. We both became angry and the session derailed.

Furthermore, this isn't the first time I've had this same player question my rulings at the table. I sent an email to all the players prior to the most recent session, explaining that my rulings at the table are final, and if they disagree with any ruling, they should bring it up when the game is not in session. However, this must not have been clear to the player I am having issues with.

Normally, I would just not invite him back to play because his presence is becoming poisonous. But his brother also plays in the game, and refuses to continue playing if I remove the other player. If both of them do not play, my other two players find themselves unable to continue.

I do not have the option of finding another player in my area.

I realize this is a rather vague concern, and there is no correct answer, but does anyone have any advice?



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cmkawasaki
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I like to solve this is asking for checks often, whenever the player could be aware. The result is often things such as 'You hear a bird chirp from a short distance away', which might lead my players to see more into things than they might have, if they were metagaming.

On another note, for the player that failed the listen check, his argument is not unreasonable. If he suspects they are keeping a secret from him, and seem to be close together when they usually aren't, it's right to ask for a listen check. If he fails, he can't hear them - but if he can see their lips move, based on angle, he can certainly attempt to creep closer. That's not metagaming, if his character is a busybody or nosy.

Finally - Rule 0 means you are in charge, and even the rules are secondary to that. That is the part where you can invoke and essentially say, "That's not what I believe the rules are, and therefore I override the rules on this matter."
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demoralizer
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Joined: 23 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, CM.

He didn't ask for a listen check, I decided he was in a position to hear it so I offered it to him. After he failed, I decided his sense motive would have been invalid considering the circumstances. I pushed the possible information he could have achieved to a later portion in the game so the other two characters would have more time to develop that miniplot.

Does anyone else have any input?
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Hito Hyuga
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Joined: 24 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, you did what you could, honestly. He felt entitled to a roll, that you as a GM felt he was not entitled to. Granted, there were other ways he could've went about it, to where he could've gotten what he wanted, though this would require knowing more about his character and how close the other characters were in the party.

For the most part, people like him exist where they are incapable of keeping OOC where it belongs. You should probably start cracking down on the OOC if it keeps becoming an issue, not all groups can keep OOC info out of the game.
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cmkawasaki
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Joined: 21 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, rereading your post, I would like to know something very specific: what was the gamer's PC related to the charges of treason? If he was charged with treason, then paranoia is fully justified and sense motive becomes a much more important situation.

One problem you have as far as I can tell is that you have pitted PCs against each other - which is a horrible move. If the PCs cannot trust each other, then it's more natural for them to use OOC information to try and protect their character. Because they know they are dealing with a challenge that will be coming and need to be overcome.

It depends on the format of the game to how these things are handled. If this is IRC, then hidden dealings can take place, and players should not be blurting out the secret backstabbings of their fellow players. If this is in person games, people really can't keep secrets from their peers, and some people can't handle the fact that their characters are being excluded from a situation.

PC Vs PC games aren't for everyone, and the GM needs to be very careful arbitrating for them since the appearance of taking one side can lead to the destruction of the group.
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Elon
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've learned to never disclose check DC's to my players, and so I never inform if they failed. If they are evesdropping and they fail the DC, I always come with a line, and it's never "you have failed your check".

Also, on events the player is not aware of, I always make the roll. I like their faces when I roll dices and they don't have a clue of what's happening.

On cmkawasaki's take, you have Player vs Player and he's right on everything he says (specially the paranoia reasoning) but, as you say, if his character had nothing to suspect from his comrades, that's enough reason for me. Players need to roleplay, at least that's what I was told about these kind of tabletop games Laughing
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