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Puppet Master Build Help

 
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undertow92182
Genin


Joined: 06 Jul 2017
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:53 am    Post subject: Puppet Master Build Help Reply with quote

After talking to some of the community members about different character's they have had fun playing I decided to try my hand at making a Puppet Master. It seems like there is a lot that goes into making one and so I was interested in some build help.

From what I've been told there are two ways to build.

1) High Dex + Many small puppets + Sneak Attack for puppets.
- This build attempts to use as many small puppets as possible to essentially swarm targets with many sneak attacks. This build can also make great use of poisons since it will be throwing out tons of attacks and as such force multiple rolls to resist and thus creating a situation where you can likely force a failed save just due to the laws of averages.

2) High Int + Living Puppets + Stacked Craft (Mechanical)
- This build is at the mercy of the GM. If you come across enemies that are strong that actually die and happen to be in a party that is ok with gutting a human being and turning them into a puppet then this can be quite strong. The higher you can get the crafting check bonus the shorter amount of time it will take (potentially) and failed checks with a decaying body can botch the entire thing.

So, I like both of these build concepts and so far this is what I have. Regardless of which style I go I see the following:

Smart 3 / Puppeteer 10 / Elementalist 7

Early Game I'm thinking the following:

Talents: Ninjutsu, Savant - Craft (Mechanical)
Feats: Genius Ninja (Ninjutsu), Ninjutsu Adept, Weapon Finesse (Especially on build #1), Craft Puppets, Grand Master (Ninjutsu)

Since you don't really get into the use of puppets until around level 3 I put a decent focus into Ninjutsu in general since that will help with puppet techniques down the road but also create a strong foundation for a Ninjutsu focused character. With Grand Master I am focusing on reduction of time to learn techniques so I can split focus some and have perhaps some blaster Ninjutsu techniques as well so that when I reach Elementalist I'll be well equipped to utilize it without any sacrifice.

I welcome any and all feedback.
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TheTrulyAvaricious
Bijuu/Tailed Beast


Joined: 14 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings,

I would probably recommend if you are going into Living Puppets, dropping Elementalist for the Living Puppeteer class from the Playwrights Primer.

7 levels, but in return you get some pretty fantastic abilities.
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undertow92182
Genin


Joined: 06 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would probably recommend if you are going into Living Puppets, dropping Elementalist for the Living Puppeteer class from the Playwrights Primer.

7 levels, but in return you get some pretty fantastic abilities.


I just purchased the book and you are very right. Thank you very much for the suggestion!
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undertow92182
Genin


Joined: 06 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so we all know that when it comes to which style of jutsu to focus on the Puppet Master is going to focus on Ninjutsu. But now I am curious, what should the secondary focus be? Here are some thoughts.

Genjutsu - A little Genjutsu can go a long way when using puppets in a deceptive manner. The main issue I would see here is that without feats/talents to bump it the saves for Genjutsu will typically be too low to be reliable.

Fuinjutsu - This is what I am strongly considering as the best secondary focus for Puppet Masters. Not only can you create seals to make your puppets more durable (Or suicide bombers if you don't mind the repair bill). Additionally, once you master certain techniques well enough you can have an army of puppets sealed into scrolls. This works especially well if you go Living Puppets since no one will have a chance to try to identify them until it is too late.

Taijutsu - I don't really consider this a viable option. The stat spread to utilize them is just too different from what is needed for puppets. You could do a Dex based build and make it work fairly well but I believe it to be the weakest of the three options.

So, what secondary focus would you do? Would you ignore the other three and go straight Ninjutsu?
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TheTrulyAvaricious
Bijuu/Tailed Beast


Joined: 14 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings,

My recommendation would probably be a mix of Genjutsu and Fuinjutsu. Genjutsu because even if you don't make a use of it technique wise, you'll need it for identifying and snapping yourself out of it.

Fuinjutsu as you say works for sealing them as well as bringing other options to the table with the more esoteric jutsu. If nothing else, back it up with Create Sealed Item and your party will love you for cheap paper bombs. Be aware you'll also need craft (calligraphy) if you do Fuinjutsu, but with your huge amount of skill points that's honestly not terrible.

Taijutsu is the weakest option, but ultimately you'd want it for Speed Ranks. The dodge bonus will help with propping your Defense bonus, as I don't recall Puppeteer or Living Puppeteer giving you much.
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undertow92182
Genin


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, won't that spread me pretty darn thin?

For Puppet Mastery...
Ninjutsu
Craft (Mechanical)
Knowledge (Earth and Life Science)
Concentration

Then the extras...
Fuinjutsu
Craft (Calligraphy)

Genjutsu

Taijutsu

Then skills like Spot and Listen which will hurt if you are lacking. Since I'll only be sticking to Smart Hero for 3 levels then jumping into Puppeteer my number of skill points will even see a sharp drop off fairly quickly.

Perhaps if I do some focus into Doton techniques I can gain defense that way rather than going speed thus eliminating the need for Taijutsu? I may also need to consider dropping Fuinjutsu since it requires two skills to function and may not be worth it in the long run.

As it stands that spread is not only too thin, but impossible to maintain over the long term.
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lord4571
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Joined: 23 Mar 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually im running into the same issues i think ur saying will spread you thin, and its without any genjutsu.
1st level i have sealweaver, craft weapon, nin weapon pro, and grand master
(house rule for extra feat)
2nd i take craft sealed items
3rd genin
4th craft puppets
if im going to be crafting seals i need legendary craftsman, not to metion master craftsman, mastercrafter, grand master craftsman, craft living puppet, genin, chunin, jounin, multi puppet fighting and multi attack puppet.

to get all of this im forgoing getting any real puppeteer skills, and to be able to craft items my team would need.

(ill be starting my own post with this info as well with more detail later, but i need a build help so i can maximize my time, exp, and wealth)
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SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


Joined: 10 May 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trying to be a general crafter and a puppet crafter is really not going to work out for you. You only want to be picking up puppeteer feats. Any time you're crafting, you're going to be crafting puppets, not sealed items.
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ZeronosVega
The Tank


Joined: 10 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirShadow wrote:
Trying to be a general crafter and a puppet crafter is really not going to work out for you. You only want to be picking up puppeteer feats. Any time you're crafting, you're going to be crafting puppets, not sealed items.


Yeah, you'll be stretching yourself really thin (unless your GM is really allowing some flexibility in both your builds and the amount of free time/resources you have).

The best thing to do is try and "know a guy" as an NPC crafter or PC.
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lord4571
Genin


Joined: 23 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what i thought. so ill start my own post to explain my situation. but yeah its mainly "help me with puppet master build" so if the starter of this thread wants to follow it you can.

Link to post: http://www.narutod20.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=68924#68924
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undertow92182
Genin


Joined: 06 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After much conversation and deliberation I have come up with a basic build.

Class Progression: Smart Hero 3 > Puppeteer 6 (CL 9) > Living Puppeteer 7 (CL 16)

The last 4 levels are still under consideration. I could finish off Puppeteer or potentially go into a different prestige class.

Level 1
Starting Occupation: Mentored
Occupation Feat: Ninja Genius (Ninjutsu)
Occupation Permanent Class Skills: Craft (Calligraphy), Genjutsu, Concentration (Considering swapping for Hide)

Talent: Ninjutsu

Feats: Simple Weapon Prof, Nin Weapon Prof, Grand Master, Sealweaver, Nijutsu Adept

Affinity: Doton

Level 2
Bonus Feat: Craft Puppets

Level 3
Talent: Savant - Craft (Mechanical)
Feat: Weapon Finesse

-------------------------

Grand Master is crucial for mastering Chakra Threads as fast as possible. +6 to the check will basically double the bonus.

Sealweaver at level 1 is also crucial. Since I am taking Craft (Calligraphy) as a permanent class skill it means that I also get Fuinjutsu as a class skill every level. This means creating enchancement seals and storage seals will remain viable for the entire character's career.

I chose Doton for the defensive benefits since this character will completely neglect taijutsu and thus won't have training. Couple that with defense seals and I should be fine.

I will be making INT, DEX, and CON my primary stats (in that order). Weapon Finesse will A) Make landing strikes easier for me. and B) Give me the option to do the same for my puppets later on. Plan is technically the stronger of the two options but since it has an activation roll (which can be failed) it makes Weapon Finesse a little better. I could technically go Savant and Plan talents if someone can point out something I'm missing.
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SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're going to take Skilled Puppeteer, using Exploit Weakness is much better than Weapon Finesse for a human puppeteer. Your intelligence will almost always be higher than whatever strength or dexterity your human puppets have if you are building it up (which you should be).
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undertow92182
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The crappy thing about Exploit Weakness is that is can only be used on a second round of combat, it requires sacrificing your movement, and it requires an Intelligence check with a bonus equal to Smart levels at DC 15.

It would seem to me that if anything I should take both. On the first round of combat I can still use my superior Dex modifier. On the second round I can decide if I want to risk the movement sacrifice and roll by observing my opponents.

The hard thing about banking on living puppets is my campaign is starting at level 1.. so I need to survive long enough to make better use of risky talents/abilities.
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SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, your early levels, you're basically going to be a ninjutsu user. Puppets aren't good until you have several levels of puppeteer and they can be quite expensive. Your first round of combat will typically be using buffs anyways and as a ninjutsu-focused character, you'll rarely be using your movement anyways.

I played a human puppeteer build from level 1 to epics and I don't think I ever failed a check for Exploit Weakness until it got to the point that I couldn't fail because my int bonus was so big.
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undertow92182
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

out of curiosity, which affinity did you choose? Did it work out well?
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SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I chose wind as my first because it has the most utility. Being able to double jump, stop yourself form taking massive falling damage (especially if you get flying puppets), and having access to some of the most effective offensive ninjutsu is great.
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undertow92182
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you focus on Taijutsu at all? I've been waffling on putting some focus into it for Speed training... but it is a hefty investment of skills, a feat, and time.. skills and time being difficult in a Puppet build.
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SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly never took speed ranks, though I had more than enough skill points if I had wanted to cross-class for them.
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undertow92182
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's good to hear.

Doing Ninjutsu, Fuinjutsu, Chakra Control, and some Genjutsu was already going to spread my skill points a little thin.
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undertow92182
Genin


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Upon further review I feel that Exploit Weakness alone is lacking. A chance to fail activating it, unable to use on first round of combat (meaning you can never use it as part of a sneak attack), has action economy tax, and only usable on one opponent at a time.

However, as previously suggested, when coupled with Weapon Finesse you can shore up the majority of this weakness. This allows the use of my secondary stat in combat with light Nin weapons and eventually puppets at any time. No roll to fail, no action economy, and usable on multiple opponents at a time.
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SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just use ninjutsu or traps if you don't hit with exploit weakness? Honestly, you should never ever be using a melee attack until level 6 or 7 when you have puppets for that.
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undertow92182
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's my main issue, giving the bonus of either Weapon Finesse or Exploit Weakness to my puppets. If I don't succeed on the roll to activate Exploit Weakness then I can't transfer it to my puppets. Even then, it is only versus one target rather than all targets.

What it gains in power it lacks in flexibility and risk.
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SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can make puppets with high strength though. Only dex-based puppeteers should worry about using finesse because they get their damage from getting sneak attack and using a lot of puppets at once. Dex-based puppeteers are also better at using poison since they are almost always multiclassing into Shade for the sneak attack dice.

Human puppeteers want to make one strong puppet with high strength and as many attacks as possible for offense or a really tanky one to protect them while they blast people with ninjutsu... at least until you get human puppets and can do cool stuff.

The point is, if you're a human puppeteer and you're focusing on using dexterity for your puppets to hit, you're just not going to be doing much damage. Or at least, it's sub-optimal compared to your other options.
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undertow92182
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get what you're saying.

I guess over the long term having Weapon Finesse won't be as important as other options. I'm just thinking that having a mix of normal and human puppets would be best.. since human puppets are forbidden by most villages.

A purist build would be best in the long run but levels 4-6 will be a struggle since craft human puppet is not an early feat.

Thank you very much for this discourse, it has given me a lot to think about.
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SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, I never said a human puppeteer would not have regular puppets. I said they want a big tanky or many-armed puppet, maybe one of each, but they want to control one or two puppets at a time generally.

I think you are thinking too hard about your early game. Weapon finesse only helps you if you are making a melee weapon attack. You NEVER want to be making a melee weapon attack. You want to throw weapons or use ninjutsu.

By the time you're Smart Hero (or Paragon) 3/Puppeteer 2, you should be able to pool your funds for a defensive puppet that can protect you while you blast your opponents with ninjutsu or a puppet with high strength that can punch your foes with 2-4 limbs.
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undertow92182
Genin


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, maybe I'm confused about something.

To have a puppet with a high strength won't I need a living puppet? Since normal puppets use my stats and if I modify the strength to go up then it's dexterity will go down and make it's defense plummet. Also, when you say defensive puppet do you mean a medium sized one that I can hide inside of? Just wanting to clarify.

Also, Weapon Finesse can be used unarmed and if I transfer it's effects to one of my puppets that happens to already have a high dex (likely living puppet) it could gain the benefit of weapon finesse but use its own dexterity.
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SirShadow
Biffu Aroi


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're misunderstanding the rules. Normal puppets only use your Dexterity. That's why Dex-focused puppeteers are a thing. But if you look at all the cores, they all have their own strength and they use that to determine it. They don't use your strength.

And yeah, I meant one with armor plating that you could hide inside of.
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undertow92182
Genin


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After much consideration I believe these are the feats I will go with.

Starting Occupation: Genius Ninja (Ninjutsu)
Starting Class: Simple weapon prof, Light armor prof (My GM is using the optional rule)
Level 1: Sealweaver
Level 1: Grand Master
Level 1: Nin Weapon Prof
Level 2 Smart Hero: Ninjutsu Adept
Level 3: Craft Puppet
Level 6: Puppet Multiattack
Level 9: Craft Living Puppet
Level 12: Multipuppet Fighting
Level 15: Chunnin / ???
Level 18: Jounnin / ???

I've been dabbling with the idea of grabbing advanced seals as well.. but it really isn't needed. My GM has told me he will be giving Gennin as a bonus feat when we earn it IC but he is on the fence about Chunnin and Jounnin. If he decides to make us buy the feats I may save them for my last two.. or may ignore them entirely.

Thoughts?
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valentind09
Genin


Joined: 03 Jan 2019
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

undertow92182 wrote:
Ok, so we all know that when it comes to which style of jutsu to focus on the Puppet Master is going to focus on Ninjutsu. But now I am curious, what should the secondary focus be? Here are some thoughts.

Genjutsu - A little Genjutsu can go a long way when using puppets in a deceptive manner Garde Meubles Bordeaux. The main issue I would see here is that without feats/talents to bump it the saves for Genjutsu will typically be too low to be reliable.

Fuinjutsu - This is what I am strongly considering as the best secondary focus for Puppet Masters. Not only can you create seals to make your puppets more durable (Or suicide bombers if you don't mind the repair bill). Additionally, once you master certain techniques well enough you can have an army of puppets sealed into scrolls. This works especially well if you go Living Puppets since no one will have a chance to try to identify them until it is too late.

Taijutsu - I don't really consider this a viable option. The stat spread to utilize them is just too different from what is needed for puppets. You could do a Dex based build and make it work fairly well but I believe it to be the weakest of the three options.

So, what secondary focus would you do? Would you ignore the other three and go straight Ninjutsu?

I think rather that it's due to his power because he does not have the same power as naruto or the
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