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Living Puppeteer hyouma Help (build+time management)

 
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lord4571
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Joined: 23 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:45 pm    Post subject: Living Puppeteer hyouma Help (build+time management) Reply with quote

alright so first im going to explain my team (if you think something isnt possible its cuz its being homebrewed).

So my team consist of...
taijutsu specialist using a Huge blade in one arm
Medical ninja who is going to be a crafter of poisons and shinobi drugs
Puppeteer from the hyouma bloodline being able to use ice techniques (me)

i get 4 feats at level 1 (homebrew extra feat)
taking advance study, bloodline, grand master, and nin weapon pro.
2nd level taking craft puppets

my current level progression is 4 smart, all of puppeteer and living puppeteer then all of epic puppeteer and epic living puppeteer (idk which order i should do for epic).

with this in mind here are my issues.
Levels, Time, Wealth, Jutsus, and Feats.

levels: this one is simple, in a 20 level build im 1 level off with...
4 smart
10 puppeteer
7 living puppeteer
so what level should i forgo in those 20 levels. i really dont want to get rid of the 4th level in smart cuz thats another feat

Time: chakra threads and crafting is going to be a pain as it does take up a bunch of time from jutsus though puppeteers look like they dont need a whole lot having the ones they do need as a back up is always nice. the only way i can think to reduce this is by feats.

Wealth: again something that depends on the game more. even so the way to fix it is again feats or skill points in profession.

Jutsus: alright so here is where im questioning if im doing to much. having the advance bloodline for ice jutsus. if im not then cool now i just need to balance the time, but if i am then it sounds like im wasting a feat and 2 levels.
Fuinjutsu: i know i should be focused on ninjutsu but my one issue is carrying around all my puppets. i want to seal them some way but unsure whats the best way to do this, it also looks like if i want to consistently seal and unseal them for use i have to know 2 jutsus for that, not only that but with out the feats it will take for ever to do

Feats: as everything has something to do with feats. for time i can take the crafting feats and maybe switch out one of my first feats with Chakra affinity for the extra learn bonus to ninjutsu. then for wealth there is always windfall for +3 wealth +1 to profession. if hyouma is bad choice then i can switch that feat out to help, but the one feat i think i need is grand master in terms of ones for jutsu. because of how much time it takes to master chakra threads.
Cafting: it seems in the puppeteer build it kinda wants you to have the option to craft other things, but those things take feats.

so what should i do? where im i going right or wrong?
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lord4571
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Joined: 23 Mar 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

additional issue, combat early levels i think im not going to do so hot. i feel like i need extra bab or a jutsu that goes off of a save vs attack roll.
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undertow92182
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Joined: 06 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

I am also doing a puppeteer build and have been scouring the books as well as getting feedback from the community in general. Here is some of the information I have gleamed.

Bloodlines: Doing a puppet master that is also part of a bloodline is a very difficult move. As you have accurately pointed out, puppet masters are already spread quite thin and tossing in a bloodline just further complicates things. Since hyouma is an intermediate bloodline you are looking at either sacrificing 2 character levels to keep your bloodline progression, or looking at EXP penalties which will eventually put you behind your team anyway. In all honesty, I say if you want ice then avoid the bloodline and grab the feat instead.

Fuinjutsu: This is one I am also struggling with. I want Fuinjutsu for the same reason, to be able to easily store puppets. However, Fuinjutsus also requires the Craft (Calligraphy) skill to function properly. Seeing as puppet masters get stretched quite thin on skills this is a difficult proposition. I would say if we want it to only take it as far as is needed to A) Be able to master the storage seals, and B) Be able to supply our teams with paper bombs if needed. We aren't trying to make sealing experts so anything beyond that is unnecessary for us.

Taijutsu and Genjutsu: As TheTrulyAvaricious pointed out in my thread, it is good to get at least 7 ranks in Taijutsu (so you can learn Speed Ranks One and Two) and also to have ranks in Genjutsu to try and identify and counter Genjutsus being used against you.

Wealth (aka the answer to crafting times): Even without the use of the windfall feat it is possible to start the game with a 13 wealth. 8 maxed rolled + 1 Occupation + 4 ranks in profession. Grab something like Profession: Engineer since (if your GM is nice) you can do city planning and blueprints with some downtime while on missions. Instead of expending the time and effort on crafting your own basic puppets just buy puppets once you get your wealth a little higher. Remember, you can raise your wealth with profession checks with the DC set at your current wealth bonus. You want everyone on your team to love you? Be able to buy them anything they want without even making a roll.

The only puppets you, yourself, absolutely need to craft are your living puppets. To start out use your wealth to get all your starting gear and if you are concerned with not having the chance to purchase/craft a puppet before level 3 then even if you only rolled a 3 for starting wealth that will still give you a total of 8 so you can take 10 on the wealth check and have a small combat or utility puppet at the cost of a single wealth bonus.

I, myself, rolled a 6 + 1 + 4 + 3(windfall feat) for a total of 14. If I can get one more point into my wealth bonus I can buy as many small utility puppets as I like and after gaining 4 more bonus can buy as many small combat puppets as I like.. getting to that point by level 3 shouldn't be a struggle.


I have more wisdom on the matter but have to get ready for work. I'll circle back and do an edit likely tonight.
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lord4571
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Joined: 23 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you, i saw your post before actual put my post link in yours for my more spasific situations of, while of course trying to put some questions related to just your post and what others where saying.

1 i didnt think profession worked like that i thought it was 1-4 skill ranks in profession= 1 wealth (all together) that changes things a bit.

2 where is the stopping point for seals then, because also with out the proper feats your taking a -4 or -8 to learn checks as well as seals taking like double or triple the time to do?

3 the third thing which i think i posted about was not being able to actual surivie. i have only 15hp and 13 def. and i cant wear armor, or i can but im most likely going to end up taking it off right when combat starts. the reason for this is because the gm added flaws to the game. one of the flaws i got was exobistionist (if you seen fairy tail im gray). what that does is that i basicly dress down to a swim suit as a free action if i fail a will save at the start of combat. so i need either more health or more def.
(we rolled)
STR 14
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 15
WIS 8
CHA 12
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undertow92182
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Joined: 06 Jul 2017
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, upon a re-read it would seem you are right about profession. However, the bonus really ramps up when you level up.

So, you will only get a +1 at first level so the boost isn't that great. However, the boost to wealth is a slow roll in your favor. Lets say you started at level 1 with 4 ranks in profession. You rolled 2d4 and got a 5 starting wealth. Additionally, you chose an occupation with a +1 wealth. The math to start is..

1+5+1 = +7 Wealth bonus

This leaves you too low to take 10 on the wealth roll and get a combat puppet, but you can still take 10 and get a small utility puppet (Wealth DC 15) which still spells out puppet at level 1. If you use that option you will lose 2 wealth bonus (DC 15 or higher + 1-10 points higher than current Wealth) and end with a starting wealth of 5.

Now, you hit level 2 and bump profession to 5. Since you have 1-5 ranks in profession you will be receiving an automatic +1 in Wealth but you will additionally get a free roll to see if you can boost it further. Sadly, you took an 8 in wisdom so you get a -1 to this roll. This roll is set at a DC that is equal to your current wealth. So, here is the math...

1d20+4(5 ranks, -1 ability modifier) at DC 5

The average result of 1d20+4 = 15

If you beat the DC you get +1 wealth
For every 5 points you exceed the DC you get an additional +1

So, in this example you get an automatic +1
You beat the DC: +1
You beat the DC by 10: +2

So, even at an average roll you now have a puppet and +9 Wealth. This is on top of wealth rewards for missions.

Level 3. You get 6 ranks in Profession
6-10 ranks = +2 wealth automatic

Lets say you got some wealth bonus but you also collected more puppets and have a wealth of +9 still.

1d20+5(6 ranks, -1 ability modifier) at DC 9

Average result = 16

So, you gain the automatic +2 (6-10 ranks in profession)
You beat the DC: +1
You beat the DC by 7: +1

So, just from having 6 skill ranks in profession you are now up to 13 wealth on average and assuming you used up wealth rewards from missions.

The higher you can get your profession the higher you potential of getting even more wealth. It can really snowball quickly in your favor if you figure out more ways to get a bonus to your Profession checks.
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lord4571
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Joined: 23 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theres still the issue of 2 and 3.
2 funjutsu taking x amount time away from everything else cuz i dont have space for its feats

3 suriviablity to live through the game. i have an issue with bad rolls and it or someone else causing a team tpk. i want a character to live and be good but i have my issues with this all together.
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undertow92182
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2: The part that hurts here is the necessity of Sealweaver. If you are feat starved and want to use Fuinjutsu but not purchase Sealweaver it can be done but in a delicate manner.

First: Grand Master gives +6 to learn anything.
Second: Genius Ninja (Fuinjutsu) gives +2 to learn checks for Fuinjutsu and is selectable if you have the Mentored starting occupation.

+8 to learn Fuinjutsu Techniques which cancels the -8 completely. Yes it will still take double the time but at least you aren't choking on that massive penalty.

Is this optimal? Not in the least. But, it fits within a feat you were already planning to choose anyway and one of the starting feats of an occupation which makes it viable. The reality is if you only want Fuinjutsu for the two storage seals then it won't impact you too badly to learn them.

3: Taijutsu 7 for Speed Rank One and Two. Learning training techniques without the Training feat only give a -4 to the learn check and requires 2 more successes. With Grand Master giving a +6 you are looking at a net bonus of +2 which isn't shabby.

Speed Rank One = +1 dodge bonus to Defense and Reflex saves.
Speed Rank Two = +2 dodge bonus to Defense and Reflex saves.

The chakra cost is minimal and it lasts for 5 rounds before needing reactivation. The activation is also automatic at the beginning of combat so it is good on action economy.

Additionally, you can move faster. 10 extra feet per turn, per rank of Speed. A great way to survive is to stay out of reach and keep interposing with puppets.

You can't help bad rolls... but you can give yourself as many bonuses and fail safes as possible. If all else fails then Clone Jutsus in any flavor are your friend... they are a flat percentage chance to just not get hit which is excellent bang for your buck.
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lord4571
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

-_- grand master is only for mastery...
and my gm rolls for who can even pick up genius nin which he says i cant. i really should be a genius nin but cuz of a roll i cant get it
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undertow92182
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point on Grand Master. Well then, looks like if you want Fuinjutsu then you need to make room for Sealweaver. Either that or be ready to sink some time and hope for the best on the rolls.

As far as starting feats you get 2 for free, 1 for human (assuming you're human), 1 for first level character. So, if your GM is giving you an extra feat shouldn't that make 5 feats and thus cover Sealweaver?

Also, what technique are you trying to get with Advanced Study?
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lord4571
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

advance study was for use of battle wires but ive been questioning it for a bit now.

i just find it waste to put down a feat for something ill only use for one trick and even then that one trick.

and str and dex ranks depending how how the gm sees them is either going to be impossible to get or hard to get.
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Vladeshi
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Joined: 13 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know you already went past the Wealth issue, but I just wanted to point something out.

When I was first looking at building a Puppeteer, I was quite worried about Wealth as well(Some of those components get expensive).

It turns out you don't need to worry as much as you think.

From page 973 of Naruto D20
Quote:
Over the course of a week, the missions may give a wealth reward
equal to the result of a Profession check with a bonus equal to +0 for D-Rank, +1 for C-Rank, +2 for B-Rank and +3 for A-Rank. Treat this as a standard level up profession
check, and the bonus for each mission stack.


So every week, as long as you complete a mission, you get a check to increase Wealth as though you leveled.
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lord4571
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok well heres a question.

i saw a post about puppeteer being to op for maybe reasons of bad gming or gm not understanding how puppeteer works. now the point of the post i think was pretty well answered with gm gave the player way to much time and didnt understand how the componets on the puppet were actual suppose to be used, but towords the end of this post conclusion there was a interesting debate that never came to its clear cut answer, im looking for it in the book but also unsure if ill find said answer as there were 2 in the post.

the question was basicly: can you buy the materials for the puppet before having the puppet core?

answer 1: yes you can puppet parts dont expire and there should be no reason you need the puppet core before you can buy the materials for it

answer 2: no you cant because the puppet core is a material it self and when you buy the material you must use it immediately per book rules (which answer 1 said per book rules it doesnt clearly state that)

now since i cant find a clear cut answer i will use logic
lets say you want to build a trailer.
yes u take time buying the parts and spend the money sure, but lets think about what you need. you need a design, a frame, wood or metal, tires, lights, etc. now for some reason the frame you need is to expeincesive but you know its exact design and the rest of the parts needed (or you want to have all the parts before you craft the actual frame). you have a "design" or "blueprint" of how everything is going to fit together. so you start buying all the parts for it before you buy the frame. after you have all the parts lets say something happens in life that you cant finish the trailer yet so you dont buy the frame yet and you put all the parts in storage. keeping them in there packages or away from any harm. 3 months later you get a lot of free time and money to buy that frame (or make it). with all the parts still in new condition you can still use them. at the end you have a trailer that fits your needs.

clearly the frame in this case is the puppet core and the parts are components and materials. if kept safe and clean or never messed with after there bought putting the parts into the frame (or putting the components into the puppet core) shouldnt be a issue. am i wrong here? and does the book clarify this anywhere?

below is how this question got started... and how it ended which seems to left it kinda hanging in the air a bit for me

Quote:

the start of this question
Dairius_Chi wrote:
I was speaking in generals, plus there isn't anything saying you have to buy the puppet before buying the materials to get extra points, as anything with puppets can be crafted...if you really wanted, you could craft a components without crafting the pupept


the counter
SirShadow wrote:
Sure, you could craft a component, but you can't "get the materials" for the extra points. It's a craft check that the puppet itself is involved in. You have to have the puppet first.


the true question
Dairius_Chi wrote:
So puppet parts can expire now? >.>


the answer given to the true question
SirShadow wrote:
Only when you try to apply logic to a system that is used in an attempt to try and parody one of the most complicated parts of life in the simplest way possible. Hell, I wish my finances worked the way the wealth system did.

You buy the materials, and you use them. You can't just by materials for the heck of it. it's all part of the crafting process in the same way you can't buy part of something, you have to buy the whole thing. It's just one of the prices you pay for "easy money".


ending of ehhh... lets not argue about this
Dairius_Chi wrote:
Well, this doesn't really apply to me anyways, and it's all based on speculation to begin with, not really a productive train of though



as someone tries stating rules. no one double checks and it gets dropped, even though logic seems to side with darius chi and book may side with SirShadow. (this isnt a call out on these 2 just where the question arised and actual wanting to double check this before i do one or the other and mess up)


Last edited by lord4571 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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lord4571
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Joined: 23 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so i think the only thing not covered so far is what other feats should i be keeping an eye? and which feats should i say **** it i dont need it.

genin
chuunin
jounin
master craftsman
mastercrafter
grand master craftsman
multi attack puppet
mutli puppet fighting
(to get all of these ive traded out all my puppeteer skills 1-20)

and also how should my leveling be? should i go smart 4/puppeteer 10/living puppeteer 4-6? or should i go take more of living puppeteer then puppeteer?

?smart 4/puppeteer 7-9/living puppeteer 7?

or dont finish either of them and leave a level or 2 from both out? (idk why this would happen but hey gotta condsider everything
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undertow92182
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Joined: 06 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Me again,

As far as puppet components you can absolutely own components before you attach them to the puppet. You can also purchase raw materials and store them away before you use them to craft things. The only materials I could see having a finite amount of time to work with would be poisons, drugs, and food. Wood, metal, wires, and bolts don't "go bad" if they are stored well.

However, I believe the heart of that debate is what is causing the confusion. Somewhere along the way half of the debaters were talking about extra points for attaching components on a puppet core while the other half was talking about components to attach/detach from said points/cores.

I think most of this gets answered, however, when looking under the Craft (Mechanical) section of the rulebook. Specifically on page 87...

Quote:
Undo Modification: A successful check removes the effect of a single modification that
can be undone. The modification can be reapplied later by making another check.


So, with the above understood this clearly shows that points can be added but not removed from cores since those are modifications the cannot be undone. However, this DOES show that they can be added at a later time.

Next we have page 93 under the new use for Repair

Quote:
Check (Installing a Puppet Component): To install a puppet component requires a
Repair check (DC is equal to the component's purchase DC).
Check (Uninstalling a Puppet Component): Uninstalling a puppet component requires
a Repair check (DC 15).


This shows that components are absolutely a separate part from the core itself and can be added and removed with a Repair check. Once more this indicates that they can be created separately and added/removed at a later time.

I hope this helps clear that up for you and your GM.
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undertow92182
Genin


Joined: 06 Jul 2017
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wanted to quickly add one more thing that will make this build much stronger and easier to play.

Starting Occupation: Mentored
One of your three chosen permanent class skill from that starting occupation: Craft (Calligraphy)
Level 1 Feat: Sealweaver.

Sealweaver not only lets you train Fuinjutsu techniques without penalty but it also states that if it is chosen at level 1 then any time Craft (Calligraphy) is considered a class skill for you then so is Fuinjutsu. This means you will get both skills as class skills at every level for your character, thus making it even more viable over the long term.

Just thought I'd share that small realization.
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lord4571
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alright ive got a puppet core question
when crafting depending on the puppet it says a newly crafted puppet at max have 3 weapon points or 3 utility points (depending on which)

the puppets you buy have 3 weapon points and 1 utility or 3 utility and 1 weapon point

on page 1046 there is a table that has the # of points each puppet has, or what it seams to be to me. so why does a newly crafted puppet can only have 3 points? what does that table mean on page 1046?
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undertow92182
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, these tables and details are showing 3 different things.

1) Crafted Puppets: A crafted puppet starts out with the lowest number of component points. Thus, when you craft a combat puppet it only starts with 3 weapon points.

2) Purchased Puppets: A puppet that has been purchased off the market has already had a little extra work done to it. I'm not sure why these puppets get the extra point but that's the only explanation I can think of. As such, a combat puppet starts with the regular 3 weapon points, and an extra utility point.

3) The Maximum Points Table: As discussed previously, puppets can be modified in numerous ways. One of the main modification types is one that allows you to add extra component points. The table on page 1046 shows the maximum number of component points a puppet can have including its starting points and any points added via modifications.
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