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Ultimate Combo
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Ryuugan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:19 am    Post subject: Ultimate Combo Reply with quote

I was looking for a way to have the best combo of jutsu, and I had come across this. The only way for this to work is the user must have the Sharingan or Byakugan or any other way to increase their initiative, and the character can use the Hiten Mitsurugi Ryuu.

1st Round: You let enemy go first if possible, holding your action until they go. Then you activate your sharingan/byakugan with heroic surge, and use Ryuu Tsui Shou Sen.

2nd Round: Now initiative order has changed, your first in the count so you go. Since they are knocked up in the air because of Ryuu Tsui Shou Sen, you then bring them back down to the ground with Ryuu Tsui Sen or Ryuu Tsui Sen Zan. Heroic surge followed Kage buyou. Enemy doesnt get a turn.

3rd Round: Follow up with your Ryuu Tsui Sen Zan to again bring them back down, if you have more heroic surge's due to levels use another for Kage Buyou and repeat.


Hmmm this combo lets you pummel the enemy and they dont even get a turn. Now...would this combo be considered broken?
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cmkawasaki
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holding your action permanently lowers your init.

The combo fails.

Seccondly, they get a couple of saves to avoid losing their turns.
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Ryuugan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes your init is below theirs for waiting until they go. Now if you remember the sharingan or byakugan gives you a +4 insight bonus to your initiative. by holding your action, then using heroic surge to activate them your initiative count is now higher then theirs, assuming you held your action or by doing that your initiative is now higher then theirs due to luck.

Secondly the ONLY real save that matters is for Kage Buyou, if Kage buyou is completed, then the just keep losing turns.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is counting that they don't use Heroic Surge themselves to shunshin out of the trap.

This is also counting that Kawamiri no jutsu fails on every blow, and finally, that Ryuu Tsui Sen can chase your opponent hundreds of feet away. That's not likely happening.

Also, this is counting that the multiple Kage Buyou's you suggest don't cause the other player to hit a wall from which they can snap back.
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Ryuugan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

However if you look at the descriptions of both jutsu, Ryuu Shou Sen, "While airborne, the target is denied its dexterity bonus to defense and can take no action."

Kage Buyou, "While in the air, the target can take no action involving movements, even hand seals, and will be denied its dexterity bonus to defense."

So therefore, if they are hit by Ryuu Tsui Shou Sen, they cannot use Kawarimi afterwards since Kawarimi can only be used, "as long as the user isnt flat-footed, denied his dexterity bonus to defense, etc." Until they are on the ground again they are pretty much screwed.

The combo works if you hit with the initial attack, after that they cant take any actions. The combo would at least work till the end of the second round when the user uses heroic surge for Kage Buyou, and then they can Kawarimi.

That still doesnt change the fact that you can get 2 rounds of combat before they get their next.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might be the first person to come up with something that is allowed and is broken. Very Happy
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Ryuugan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hehe Thanks Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryuu Tsui Sen cannot do as you state it can; You cannot attack an airborne person with a charge attack. In addition, you cannot jump high enough to effectivily reach the target in Kage Buyou anyways.

You are correct in that he cannot attack while airborne; However, nothing states the defender cannot use Heroic Surge to interrupt the Kage Buyou or use Kawamiri, as he has effectively returned to the ground by YOUR movement.

Also, While Sharingan and Byakugan give a bonus to init, it does NOT change the order of the battle. That's not how init plays out. Init is pretty much useless once battle begins.

The next thing I might add, is if this seems so broken to you, then what about my character using a double Paralysis attack on you, with two Will Save DC 23's or be paralyzed? And once paralyzed, I do a coup de grace with 3d6 sneak attack, meaning Fort save DC 27 (on average with a kunai) or die?

Or better yet, I use Heroic Surge, and the aforementioned attack, and you make two Will saves DC 26 or be reduced to -1, then take two attacks dealing 5d6+4 damage each.

One thing I must point out is: Breaking the rules is not that hard to do, if you are determined. And yes, any character I make can break rules. Except, I give my opponents less of a chance to survive than your combo allows for. Oh, and I go out of my way to not post it everywhere when I do such.
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Ryuugan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, Ryuu Tsui Sen says, "The user uses the momentum from his charge to take a running leap and bring down his sword on his oppoent. To properly use this technique, the user must have enough space to Jump up (see jump skill)" therefore I can assume that the attack comes from above since the user did jump, and the height of his jump does decide the bonus attack and damage. So therefore I can conclude that you can attack airborne opponents.

Now Kage Buyou says, "With a successfull unarmed attack, the user knocks the opponent in the air a number of feet equal to three times the damage dealt" Now assuming our guy has the combat martial arts feat and had 13 str the average damage he will do is about 4, so the target is knocked up 12 feet. Using the modified jump rules in Naruto D20 a character who is 8th level max it out for 11 ranks then add 1 from str, had the Run feat, and did the charge he would get a +16, assuming he rolled a 10 for a modified 26 he is able to jump 12 feet in the air. Because he is a medium creature he has vertical reach of 8ft, so that means he can easily attack the creature with the jump. And if he did have problems with the jump, the character could just as easily do barely any damage with his unarmed attack so they are within reach if need be.

Now regarding Initiative, it is not useless, since characters are able to change their initiative count, look at the Special Initiative Actions section in the PhP. Characters change their initiative all the time using Delayed actions or using the Ready Action. And the book does state, "Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing". So therefore you CAN change your initiative, and it will affect combat.

And about using Heroic surge, it can only be used before your actions on your turn or after, never on someone else's turn, so them being able to take actions on your turn is wrong.

Lastly, I was simply posting an interesting combination attack Taijutsu attack, I thought it was fairly cool. So you dont need to be so upset that I just posted it up, and yes there are plently of other ways to break the system, and plenty of cheaper attacks, I simply chose to post this one. We all know that having characters make multiple 'fort/will save or die' techniques are indeed very cheap.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About that Heroic Surge:

Nowhere does it state you are not allowed to do it in someone else's turn, actually. It doesn't say you need to do it in your own turn either. It simply states you need to do it either before or after your turn, so you can't do it during your turn. Nowhere does it say it needs to be done immediately before or after. (At least, that's the way I understand it)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heroic Surge, "The character may take an EXTRA (as in addition to) move action or attack action in a round, either before or after the character?s REGULAR actions (as in the actions on your turn). "

The way its worded, is not that you get an action when its not your turn, and it specifically says 'action' not turn. If they wanted the feat to be able to used on someone else's turn the wording would have been like, "The character may take a move action or attack action in a round." They wouldnt need to state that it can be done before or after your regular actions if it could be used on anyone else's turn.

The closest ability this feat emulates is the extra partial action they had in 3.0 given by the haste spell, and you couldnt do actions on someone else's turn with it.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the way it is stated means you can't use it in your own turn, in between actions.

You say extra means in addition to. You're trying to tell me that it's impossible to add anything to something that already exists? It's like saying you can't add 2 and 3, because the 2 was already there...

Whether you take an action long before or long after your turn, even during someone else's, it's still an action that is IN ADDITION TO your regular actions. The meaning of extra has absolutely squat to do with timing.

And, you don't get an extra turn. Where did you get that idea from? You get an action, not a turn.

If they really meant for it to be usable only in your own turn, don't you think that they would have said "During your turn" or "immediately before or after..." ? Because that would have made it exclusive to use in your own turn. The way it's formulated right now does not.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't read the thread too closely BUT - exactly since when increasing your initiative modifier changes the turn order? You roll the initiative at the beggining of the battle and that's it - no changes to initiative mod change that order (unless it another diffrence between modern and normal d20 but I don't recall something like that)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am more confused now then ever. Heroic Surge allows a character to take an extra action in the round. Ok, that I understand. Now you say, you can take that action, whenever you want, during that round of combat!?

Looking at the ACTIONS IN COMBAT section in the DMG, "when a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire rounds worth of actions. (For exceptions, See Attack of Opportunity, and Special Initiative Actions)."

From what I can understand from that, it means that the Heroic Surge functions on your turn only, or, though im not sure, during that initiative sequence. So if you tie with someone, you could use that extra action on their turn.

If im just misinterepting the rules, and you can do it on someone else's turn how does that work? Lets say the enemy attacks me with a melee attack, I decide to use a Heroic Surge Ryuu Shou Sen, and send his ass flying into the air losing his turn, whose attack goes first?

Edit: And yes you CAN change your initiative, it says so explicitly in the MSRD, the DnD SRD, and the D20 Modern I have at my desk. This is copied directly from the MSRD that I downloaded from here,

"The GM finds out what order characters are acting in, counting down from highest result to lowest, and each character acts in turn. On all following rounds, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions)."

Look at Readied Action, it will state that your initiative count changes, and that for the rest of the encounter, it is the count on which you took the readied action, meaning you act immediately AHEAD of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hastur, it is common for the entire battle to follow one single initiative count. That's only because few actions are ever taken that can change one's initiative.

Changes in initiative do indeed cause the order of turns to change, if the new initiative counts have increased by such a number that they now exceed (or have decreased below) an initiative count they did not before.

As for Heroic Surge, I only know it's being used like that, so yes, you can interrupt an attacking foe with Heroic Surge. But, be reasonable here, it's only usable a few times per day, costing an AP every time. It could save your ass one time, but it has its limits.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:44 pm    Post subject: What are you guys THINKING? Reply with quote

Seriously, though. WHERE in the wording for Heroic Surge does it sya you can use it on someone elses turn? That would make this feat even MORE broken then it already is. All it says is that you can use it before or after your normal actions. Stop trying to bend the wording to benefit yourself so much.
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Ryuugan
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You dont need to spend an action point to use Heroic Surge. Its not stated in the feat description as a trigger to use, so you dont. Using the feat as you said so seems like a house rule. And these limits you speak of, please elaborate, as I see that its one of the most powerfull feats in the game if it can be used like that.
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hastur
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryuugan wrote:
Edit: And yes you CAN change your initiative, it says so explicitly in the MSRD, the DnD SRD, and the D20 Modern I have at my desk. This is copied directly from the MSRD that I downloaded from here,

"The GM finds out what order characters are acting in, counting down from highest result to lowest, and each character acts in turn. On all following rounds, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions)."

Look at Readied Action, it will state that your initiative count changes, and that for the rest of the encounter, it is the count on which you took the readied action, meaning you act immediately AHEAD of the character whose action triggered your readied action.


Yes but things like ready action or "waiting" (forgot the proper name for that action) clearly state that they change youur initiative order... byakugen works more like Improved Initiative feat - it adds to the initiative modifier for the roll... i doubt would any sane GM allow you change turn order just by turning byakugan on or off...

And as for Heroic Surge - if it doesn't specificly say you can use it during an opponent turn, than you can't. Period.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, each his own opinion.

And, Ryuugan, for the love of god READ will you? Did I or did I not state that the restriction is its limited amount of uses.

Oh and I'm sorry about that AP...just a little error in my recollection of the feat.

Oh, and bending the wording? I'm simply pointing it out as it is written down to the letter. If one poses no specific restrictions, why should one keep to such restrictions? Isn't that just selling yourself short?

And I don't particularly see why Heroic Surge is broken? For cryin out loud it gives you a maximum of 4 actions every day, and they're only move or attack actions...it's not like you can obliterate all enemies within 50ft. with a single use of it (well, depending on the enemies, I suppose). Besides, it's called HEROIC surge for a reason.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I take that feat a second time, I get twice the extras, right? Maybe should have some req for that, like an initiative req to take it. Super-Heroic Surge. I haven't checked, maybe there is an Epic for that.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

puddingwraith wrote:
If I take that feat a second time, I get twice the extras, right?

Wrong. You cant take a feat twice unless it clearly says so.
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Athildur
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hastur is quite correct.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....

Man did this topic escalate.

As for what I said, you can't use the Hiten Miturugi because it's a FULL ROUIND ACTION, and Kage buyou kicks them AWAY from you.

As for Init - Athildur, you're WRONG. The ONLY ABILITIES that lets you CHANGE your order in init are:

1) skipping your turn, basically going to init count 20+your init modifer

2) The Bodyguard's special ability (Not in ND20)

Heroic surge is used during a person's turn. For Example,

1) Toushiro gets 1 extra attack at his highest BAB using it.

2) Izumi-Taichou uses it to use Kanashibari no jutsu twice, three times if he spends an AP for the 10th level Ninja Scout's ability.

On another note, before Ryuugan says his combo's legal again, I state that once you've him him to the ground, they can move again. Multiple kage buyou's don't work for that reason. Also, nothing states another shinobi cannot interfere. This combo might be cool in one vs. one(when pulled off), but it's not broken.

Now, being forced to make 3 will saves, DC 21, or have Toushiro Coup de Grace you is another story.....
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Ryuu Tsui Sen or Ryuu Tsui Sen Zan is a FULL ATTACK ACTION, because its a charge attack. And yes Kage Buyou does knock them away, up in the air that is, its used like its shown in the manga and anime, they are sent flying STRAIGHT up.

As for the initiative, no one can say who is right at this point as its up to Frankto to detail whether it affects initiative result or initiative check.

Now, explain how the enemy can move again if its during my turn. Last time I checked you just couldnt move whenever you felt like during someone else's turn. They dont move cause its your turn, then you use Kage Buyou to knock them up in the air again with heroic surge, or if you use your version of Heroic surge, being able to use it when its not your turn, use Ryuu Shou Sen, that doesnt even allow a save, you just use it at the start of their turn and up they go losing their turn, only to start falling on their next turn.

Even if the combo fails cause your initiative is lowered, you can easily go around that. For example use Ryuu Tsui Shou Sen, the use Heroic surge to ready an action that when the enemy lands on the ground you use Ryuu Shou Sen. Now its their turn, they fall hit the ground, triggering your readied action, now they dont get a turn, if you hit, and its your turn again.

And yes, we all know making mulitple will saves vs. death is pretty cheap. Its nothing new, thats why you dont see people posting it.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, cm, the bonus Sharingan and Byakugan give to initiative is basically useless once init has been rolled. That kind of makes it useless, at least for Sahringan, since that is mostly activated during combat? (I may be mistaken of course, I never played either bloodline).
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athildur, that is exactly right. Unless you drop your turn to adjust initiative, it's fairly useless once init has been rolled. But there are times in which it's activated before combat. And Ryuugan, those are the RULES. You should read them.

Read Kage Buyou before you speak, baka. (Distance travelled over the course of this technique is equal to the distance knocked up) That means, if you knock them thirty feet up, they move thirty feet BACK, as well. Kage buyou does not knock them straight up into the air, because otherwise their head, which is moving first, would still be facing the ceiling.

As for Readied action, there's nothing stopping an extra jutsu from being performed. However, once they've hit the ground, they can still use Kawamiri no Jutsu, or Kaihi, as standard.

And Instant actions can be done at any time. Kawamiri no Jutsu is an example of an instant action. They make the fort save (Which is not that hard to make, if you know all of these jutsus and they are at a comparable level). Ryuu Shou Sen cannot be used because you are on the wrong facing. (E.K.A. facng him instead of his side.) He can READY an action while in midair that the moment he touches the ground, he takes an action, which supercedes your own action. He can hit something in midflight and use it to stablize himself.

And I was simply pointing out the multiple will saves was worst than your combo. You didn't invent something truly unbalancing, or Frankto would have read this and fixed it already.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmkawasaki wrote:

And Instant actions can be done at any time. Kawamiri no Jutsu is an example of an instant action. They make the fort save (Which is not that hard to make, if you know all of these jutsus and they are at a comparable level). Ryuu Shou Sen cannot be used because you are on the wrong facing. (E.K.A. facng him instead of his side.) He can READY an action while in midair that the moment he touches the ground, he takes an action, which supercedes your own action. He can hit something in midflight and use it to stablize himself.


Actually, kawarimi can only be used as an instant action, if your opponent attacks first. And since you can't move in the air, you can't kawarimi. Also, you can follow behind your opponent with a move action first. Otherwise techniques like Ura Renge wouldn't have any effect after kage buyou.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, Kawarimi can be readied just like any other jutsu. It doesnt have a perform time just because it looks pretty, you know.

Kawarimi can be used beforehand (creating a nonintelligent clone), can be readied for use to react against an attack or it can be used as an instant action.

The benefit of reading is that you can do it no matter the opponent's ECL and it doesn't cost you extra chakra because of the aforementioned ECL.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

....The combo involves knocking them into the ground then back into the air.

My argument is that they can use instant actiosn against the ATTACK knocking them back into the air, kp91. And there's nothing that says they cannot prepare for something once they hit the ground.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cm, do you even understand the wording of, " while it is airborne, the target is denied its dexterity bonus to defense and can take no action."

Now, if I use this technique, and you did not have a readied action to kawarimi or kaihi or move back, and you fail to dodge the attack, then your screwed. PERIOD.

If readiing an action is in question, just ready one to use Ryuu Shou Sen, before they hit the ground. On their turn they fall, but are still ariborne BEFORE they hit the ground, so seeing as though they are still airborne, they cannot ready an action, they cannot use Kawarimi or any other technique like it. Know why..., cause they are denied their dexterity bonus to defense (no kawarimi or Kaihi), and cause they cant take any action (no readied action, cause you need an action to ready one).

Now its your turn, if your not at their side, use your move action to position yourself, then use your standard action to ready an action to use Ryuu Shou Sen before the hit the ground again, rinse and repeat, the opponent is just dead, and never even got a turn.
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